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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 'Faith' in what - or who?

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

dorcas wrote:

Quote:
Logic asked
Quote:
Please, answer this question;
Would you rather have all the faith in the world that 1/2 an inch of ice will hold you when you walk on it?
Or
No faith at all in 3ft. of ice will not hold you and walk on it?
I am curious of y'alls answer.

Can I please clarify 'faith in the world'?

What does that mean? Or did you mean 'word'?

EDIT: Logic, it is clear that you reject the scriptural definition of faith as defined by Paul in Romans 10.

How can you maintain this stance [i]against[/i] the word of God?


I meant world
as you could have no more faith than what you have now.

There is only one kind of faith.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

How did you give trust to your friands that they will believe you?

Or, did they learn to trust you?

Your Childeren obay you because they love you, and that is because they know you are trustworth to believe you.
You taught them who you are by a liveing example.

This is the same way how we have faith in God.

God does not [b]put[/b] trust(faith) in us, He teaches us to trust Him.
God doesn't [b]put[/b] beliefe in us, we choos to believe Him.
God does not [b]put[/b] obediance in us, we choose to obay based on the knowledge He gave us that we can relye on Him.
Faith is our part of our relaitionship with Him. [b]2Peter 1:3[/b] [color=990000]As His divine power has given to us all things pertaining to life and godliness [b]through the acknowledgement[/b] of the One Who is calling us through glory and virtue,[/color]
[b]Eph 1:17[/b] [color=990000]that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full [b]recognition[/b] of Him,[/color]

This acknowledgement and recognition is God reveling Himself to us that we might choose to have faith in Him.
We must choose to acknowledge and recognize the One calling us, this is [b]Romans 10:9[/b] [color=990000]Because if you [b]admit[/b] the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.[/color]

This is not "rejecting scriptural definition of faith as defined by Paul in Romans 10."

[b]Romans 10:14[/b] [color=990000]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed[/color](had faith in)? [color=990000]and how shall they believe[/color](have faith) [color=990000]in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?[/color]

He Gives us the knowledge of Himself so we might have faith.
He gives us knowledge, we turn that knowledge into faith.

 2006/11/14 12:07Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Amen Orm,

It truly is the Faith of the Son of God. The original in the Greek makes it "OF". I don't like to get into different translation of the bible, but the KJV is one that has kept the original thought, that the Faith of God is the Faith of Jesus Christ and the Faith we now live by is His Faith. Most other translations change the little preposition to in, which puts the monkey on our back for our own works faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith ((of)) Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith ((of)) Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

by dia the faith (pistiV) of Jesus (IhsouV) Christ (CristoV,) even kai we hmeiV have believed pisteuw in eiV Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV, that ina we might be justified dikaiow by ek the faith pistiV of Christ CristoV

4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis

from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity

2424. Iesous
Search for G2424 in KJVSL
IhsouV Iesous ee-ay-sooce'

of Hebrew origin (3091); Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites:--Jesus.

5547. Christos
Search for G5547 in KJVSL
CristoV Christos khris-tos'

from 5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.

"especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: (which is Christ)--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity" (which are "OF" Christ)

Also Gal 2:20 the same.

The Faith of to the Faith in Christ. Amen.

In Christ by the Faith of Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/11/14 12:51Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Hi Logic,

You quoted an interesting scripture there, and pulled from it the few words which support your point, but, you seem to have neglected the few words which prove mine, namely 'the One Who is calling us'

You are referring to our response to God, and you are saying 'He teaches us to trust Him.'

This is like John saying 'We love Him BECAUSE HE FIRST loved us.'


I do understand that we may be more aware of our decisions to choose Him, than of His callings, but the scripture is clear many times, that Man responds to God after GOD has taken the initiative. It is this initiative which creates faith in us, where there was NONE before. After that, yes, 'faith' as an entity is a similar exercise, but the relative [i]magnitude[/i] and the impact of faith in God, compared with faith in a chair or half an inch of ice, seem to be a long way apart.... the way I see it.

I don't think a person can be talked into trusting in God whom they can't see, on the basis that a chair they can test would hold them.

 2006/11/14 13:30
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
His Faith, my faith, knowing my mind is His Mind and being renewed to that effect from the old man I used to be.



As an exercise of what you have stated above...

What is Christ's mind on a current topic of democracy and freedom that democracy brings?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/15 2:10Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother logic wrote:

Quote:
There is only one kind of faith.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith



This is not Scripturally correct.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does substance of things hoped for mean to you?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/15 2:17Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"What is Christ's mind on a current topic of democracy and freedom that democracy brings?"

Jeff I don't mix politics and religion. :-?

No matter, Christ is in control of both anyhow.
I don't believe there is any political agenda in heaven, maybe I would ascend to one political statement. 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Then: Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In Christ: Phillip
P.S. Hope this is politically correct. 8-)


_________________
Phillip

 2006/11/15 3:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
Jeff I don't mix politics and religion.



Paul would be able to discern between good and evil. The mind of Christ not only fills one with righteousness, but also leads one to battle against the powers and principalities of this world. To say one has the mind of Christ is true. One has access to all wisdom that is found in Christ through the Holy Spirit. But one must be willing to hear and then obey.

To state that one has the mind of Christ is the beginning, but we are called to more than the elementary things in Christ. The life of Abraham is given to us as an example of the maturing faith.

Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Why is it that we who have the mind of Christ do not see? We are tossed to and fro by the winds of doctrines that finds it's source in man.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/15 7:32Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Most other translations change the little preposition to in.


Actualy [b]all[/b] translations even the presious KJV change the little preposition to [b]something[/b] according to there understanding of what the meaning is.

To clarify, in the original Greek, there is no preposition at all between the words "faith" and "Jesus" or "faith" and "Christ"

[b]Galatians 2:16[/b] [color=990000]ειδότες δὲ ὅτι ου δικαιουται ἄνθρωπος εξ ἔργων νόμου εν μὴ διὰ [b]πίστεως ᾿Ιησου Χριστου[/b][/color](faith Jesus Chrsit)[color=990000], καὶ ημεις εις Χριστὸν ᾿Ιησουν επιστεύσαμεν, ἵνα δικαιωθωμεν εκ [b]πίστεως Χριστου[/b][/color](faith Christ)[color=990000] καὶ ουκ εξ ἔργων νόμου, διότι ου δικαιωθήσεται εξ ἔργων νόμου πασα σάρξ.[/color]

This is how one would translate with the least prepositions to not have a bias...
[b]Galatians 2:16[/b] [color=990000]having known that man is not is-being-justified by works Law but by means faith Jesus Christ, we also believed into Christ Jesus, so that we-shall-be-being-justified out faith Christ and not out works Law, that no flesh all will be-being-justified out works Law![/color]

However, sinse God doed not have faith(why would He need faith) the preposition of does not work for today.
the preposition of befroe a word denoted ownership as "The voice [b]of[/b] one crying in the wilderness" means the voice belongs to the one in the wilderness

So then, "the faith [b]of[/b] jesus" doses not make sense because Jesus does not have faith.

However, Faith needs an object. "the faith [b]in[/b] Jesus applies correct usage of a preposition.

Quote:
which puts the monkey on our back for our own works faith


Love is the work of faith according to James & John.
How would [b]Love[/b] be our own works if the preposition is "in"?
Pleas don't forget to answer this.

Quote:
rookie wrote:
Brother logic wrote:
Quote:
There is only one kind of faith.

Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

This is not Scripturally correct.

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What does substance of things hoped for mean to you?



In the Hebrew mind [u]faith[/u] and [u]faithfulness[/u] are the same thing.

[u]Faithfulness[/u] is loyalty and [b]obedience[/b]. [u]Faith[/u] is another word for [b]trust[/b] and [b]believe[/b], in which we put toward GOD.

[b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the [u]substance[/u] of things hoped for, the [u]evidence[/u] of things not seen.[/color]
In other words faith is [u]substantial evidence[/u] of our hope, and a right response to God.

This substantial evidence is the action or works(james) that we take based on what we know to be true, but have not seen.
This is why faith with out works is dead; faith without substantial evidence is not faith at all.

This hope that comes with our faith is not a wish but a [b]knowledge[/b] in which we await, our hope is not a wish but a [b]certainty.[/b]
This verse tells us Who our hope is in, [b]1Tim 1:1[/b] [color=990000]Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Savior, and [u]Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope[/u].[/color]

Is Jesus not factual are we not knowledgable about Him?
That is why the below is right:
Faith = trust
Faith = belief
Faith = obediance
This is faith

 2006/11/15 10:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Phillip...

I was contemplating on how I responded to you in the last two posts. I am sorry, the questions I asked were not fair.


For us who believe, the mind of Christ is freely given. What we do with Him is another matter.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/16 2:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Logic wrote:

Quote:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In other words faith is substantial evidence of our hope, and a right response to God.




In terms of Abraham, we are given many examples of what makes up the "substance" that he hoped for.

Have you ever contemplated about what a profound change Abraham experienced when God spoke to him the first time?


Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

The substance of what is hoped for consists of this experience in that God spoke to him.


Gen. 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” And there he built an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him. 8 And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel, and he pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to the LORD and called on the name of the LORD.

Here is the next example given to us in Scripture where God spoke to Abram. What was his response? He built an altar...

Again is another "item" that is added to the substance of what is hoped for...

Gen. 12:17 But the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, “She is my sister’? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way.” 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had.

Here is another 'item' that is part of the substance of what is hoped for...

Gen. 13:14 And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are—northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. 16 And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. 17 Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.”

Here is another 'item" that makes up the substance of what is hoped for...


This is Abraham's story. We could look at Isaac, Jacob, or Joseph and see this same precept working in their lives...

There is a promise that must precede faith...as God reveals the content of the promise...the hearer begins to see His faithfulness to deliver what was promised. The hearer goes from faith to faith, seeing His loving care. Trust is the result of the continuing growth in faith from one day to the next. Trust is grown in the hearer by the faithfulness of God to deliver on the promise...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/16 2:31Profile





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