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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 'Faith' in what - or who?

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Faith in God is the same as knowing that the chair that you sit on will hold you.

Therefore, if our faith in God comes from God, then the faith in the chair to hold you comes from the chair.
This is obviously ridiculous.
Therefore, our faith comes from with in us.

Faith is faith; we have faith in God that HE will honor His Word and give us eternal life.
Faith in God
Faith in chair
trust in God to save you
trust in chair to hold you

My point with all this is that your faith does not come from God as people seem to think,

If not, then the above statement is true, the faith in a chair comes from the chair and not you.

Moreover, God will condemn one who has no faith in Him. How could God justly condemn one who He has not given the thing He requirers of.
This would be against His nature.

Furthermore, if faith is given to one to be save, then one goes to hell for not being able to use what he hasn't been given.
This would be unjust.

All men have faith inherently, it is a concept of the character and will which involves reason and moral rectitude.

 2006/11/11 23:36Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

[i]Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness[/i].


Quote:
I have a question, why is it that most people when it concerns faith, go to Abraham instead of the Faith of Christ?



Two words stand out; "Believed" and "accounted", if anything it seems it is descriptive that Paul is after. I too struggled with this a bit hearing it put similarly in this fashion, as 'going to Abraham' rather than to Christ, but I believe it is complimentary not an either\or, it's a blurred distinction.

Consider;

Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Was blessed today to listen to an old Tozer series on 1 Peter and at one point he was making particular emphasis on, without directly stating it, just how time-bound we creatures are.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Taking this with a careful look at John 8 above seems to reconcile this a great deal. It's the 'same' faith if you can look at it this way. The accounting is from Gods end. In fact, John 8:56 is really quite staggering to just dwell on, all on it's own.


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Mike Balog

 2006/11/12 0:10Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

I can believe a chair is a chair and it will hold me if I sit on it, but the chair cannot save me by that faith. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, His Faith saved me.
We are not saved by faith. We are saved by Grace through Faith which is a gift. All I can do is believe.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 3:15-19 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

All man's deeds are evil, that includes our faith.

All we can do is believe God and it is His Faith that saves us.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

That includes the Faith of the Son of God unto the Law of Love in Christ Jesus. In Salvation's Birthing by the Seed of the Father we now have the Nature of God in us, that is Jesus Christ the Son.

This verse is undeniable and cannot be discarded.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This one either: Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

By our New Creature Nature, that is son's of God with the Spirit of Christ in us, we now live by the Faith of the Son of God in this new life we live in the Flesh.

The chair and Christ are a perfect picture of what faith in a chair and the Faith of the Son of God will do in the believer in working out his salvation with fear and trembling.

These are the only two places in the old testament that faith is mentioned. Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

One says there is no saving faith, the other says the Just shall live by His Faith, that is Jesus Christ.

Praise God the Faith of the Son of God came. This is just a small sample of the Faith of the Son of God in us, by which we are saved.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Check out the Faith of the Son of God.

In the Faith of Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/11/12 2:31Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
I can believe a chair is a chair and it will hold me if I sit on it, but the chair cannot save me by that faith. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, His Faith saved me.
We are not saved by faith. We are saved by Grace through Faith which is a gift. All I can do is believe.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



It isn't like there are difrent [b]kinds[/b] of faith.
It is the same kind of faith you have in Jesus as that you have in the chair.
The only thing that is difrent is what you have faith in Jesus or the chair to do.

I don't like the term "saving faith".

Muslums have "saving faith in ala, Mormans have saving faith in there god.

The only "saving faith" is, is the faith that is [b]directed[/b] towards Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross with His reserection.

I will concied that Jesus gives us faith as he gives us life, but it is not some special gift as only Christians have.

It is given as inherant as our breath or even our body. Faith is esential part of life for all mankind.

Not only for salvation.
Quote:
All man's deeds are evil, that includes our faith.


Faith is not a deed, therefore it can not be evil.

 2006/11/12 9:54Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, His Faith saved me.



How does His faith become your faith?

Quote:
All man's deeds are evil, that includes our faith.



This conclusion is not based on Scripture...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/12 14:03Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who

Logic said

Quote:
Faith in God is the same as knowing that the chair that you sit on will hold you.

Really, I don't think so.

That's because you can't have faith in God unless He has spoken to you. This much is clear from Paul's thesis in the middle of Romans 10.

Do you disagree with him?

You don't believe the chair will hold you because it says so. You believe it because it is illegal to sell chairs which are not fit for the purpose for which they were designed, and that means that the owner of a chair knows whether it is in good condition or not, and providers of chairs have a legal responsibility to have public liability insurance against the possibility of a chair failing when a member of the public uses a chair which is not regularly used by the overseer of the building in which the chair is situated.

A better example of something less dependent on man, would be that we believe the floor or the ground will continue to hold us. This is a better example, because the likelihood of the power of gravity failing suddenly, is far more remote. However, neither the floor nor the ground talk to us about how dependable they are.

The big difference when God speaks, is His eternal reality. People who have never believed in God, can hear Him speak to their hearts, and KNOW He is there, and they can completely change their minds on the basis of this encounter.

Of course, you will notice in Romans 10 when you read it, that the wrath of God is to fall on those who did not obey the gospel. That is not God's meanness, that is unbelief on the part of people who HAVE heard Him speak. See Exodus 20:19..... same story.... only this is their [i]last[/i] chance.

 2006/11/12 15:39
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Quote:
However, neither the floor nor the ground talk to us about how dependable they are.

[b]The big difference when God speaks, is His eternal reality.[/b] People who have never believed in God, can hear Him speak to their hearts, and KNOW He is there, and they can completely change their minds on the basis of this encounter.

Of course, you will notice in Romans 10 when you read it, that the wrath of God is to fall on those who did not obey the gospel. That is not God's meanness, that is unbelief on the part of people who HAVE heard Him speak. See Exodus 20:19..... same story.... only this is their last chance.



appreciate this, Dorcas
praise the Lord Jesus Christ

 2006/11/12 18:14Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Saving faith to Moslems is only saving faith to Islam.

Saving faith to Christians is the saving faith of Jesus Christ unto salvation because we believe that the Father said, Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. The Faith of the Son of God sent by The Father, given by the Holy Spirit the power to believe the need for a Savior.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Man's own faith cannot say Jesus Christ is the Lord. Only the Holy Spirit can give that faith.
We can believe the name Jesus Christ, by our own faith, but cannot call Him Lord except by His Faith through the Holy Spirit. Even Moslems say He was a good man and prophet, and devils also say who He is but won't call Him Lord. It takes the Faith of Christ Himself in a believer to make this truth manifest in the believer, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Lord of All.

Ephesians 3:9-12 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

Even principalities and powers in heavenly places did not know what God's purpose in Christ Jesus our Lord was to be. But by the Faith of Him we have confidence what God's eternal purpose was in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is;

Ephesians 3:17-21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

He just said in verse 12 that the faith of Christ is the faith dwelling in our hearts that we can comprehend with all the saints that we are filled with all the fullness of God. That is Christ Jesus in you by His Glory not ours.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Our Justification is by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our Justification makes us righteous before God by Christ Jesus in us. We live a new life in Christ Jesus and the Life we now live we live by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Not our faith in Jesus Christ. The Faith of Jesus Christ is the only Faith that can make us Faithful in Christ and give us our faith in Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who's work is it that make us perfect in Christ? It is His working that we are striving in that gives us His Wisdom and all else pertaining to salvation including the Faith of the Son of God that we now live our lives by.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/11/12 18:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Logic said
Quote:
Faith in God is the same as knowing that the chair that you sit on will hold you.

Really, I don't think so.

That's because you can't have faith in God unless He has spoken to you. This much is clear from Paul's thesis in the middle of Romans 10.


That is my point also, notice I said [b]know[/b] the chair will hold you.

The same as when He speeks to you, you will [b]know[/b] what ever He sais will come to pass.

It doesn't matter if the chair don't speek and God does, it is about the [b]knowlege[/b] of the [u]fact[/u] that the chair will hold you and the [b]knowlege[/b] of the fact that God will be true to His Word.
Faith is the acceptance of truth which we must know.

Quote:
You don't believe the chair will hold you because it says so.


No, but from the fact that it will.

I will pose a question:
Would you rather have all the faith in the world that 1/2 an inch of ice will hold you when you walk on it?
Or
No faith at all that 3ft. of ice will not hold you and walk on it?
Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Saving faith to Moslems is only saving faith to Islam.


My point there was misdirected faith is the same [b]kind[/b] of faith as rightly directed faith.

Quote:
Even Moslems say He was a good man and prophet, and devils also say who He is but won't call Him Lord.


That is because they are not persuaded to the [b]truth[/b] that they might [b]know[/b] the [b]fact[/b] that He is truely God.
also, because that they don't have faith [b]in[/b] Him not [b\]from[/b] Him

Quote:
He just said in Ephesians 3:21 that the faith of Christ is the faith dwelling in our hearts


No. it sais that Christ, not the faith of Christ.
[b]Eph 3:17[/b] [color=990000]That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,[/color]
Remember that Christ does not need faith, therefore, has no faith. Why would God need faith?

[b]Galatians 2:16[/b] [color=990000]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith [b]in[/b] Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith [b]in[/b] Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.[/color]

In greek there is no preposition between the words "faith" and "christ", there fore, the best preposition to use is "in" not "of" because of pertains to ownership and Christ has no faith.

therefore Our Justification is by the Faith [b]in[/b] Jesus Christ, not by His faith.
Quote:
Who's work is it that make us perfect in Christ? It is His working that we are striving in that gives us His Wisdom and all else pertaining to salvation including the Faith of the Son of God that we now live our lives by.


I think your problem might be that you think faith is a work on our behalf.
Faith is not a "work" nor a "deed" as you also said faith was.

 2006/11/12 21:34Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Quote:
Saving faith to Moslems is only saving faith to Islam

Phillip,

I would not call the faith that Moslems have 'saving faith', because it doesn't save them from anything, but I see what you are getting at. However, I would encourage you to put it to Moslems that the faith they have is a very shakey hope, rather than a belief in THE living God, or a relationship with HIM through which they know their sins are forgiven. My understanding of Islam is that all the judging is done after death... whereas, the repentant sinner has accepted the judgement of God NOW upon their sin, thus enabling them to ESCAPE spiritual death FOR EVER. This IS good news! :-D

To me, that is the whole point of the gospel.... that believing it IS '[b]saving[/b] faith'.... because the life of Christ DOES save us from hell, sin, punishment, death and ultimately, the grave.

 2006/11/13 6:09





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