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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 'Faith' in what - or who?

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 'Faith' in what - or who?


Really I don't want to discuss faith itself.

I have a simple question about Paul's thesis in Romans. I also have an answer. But, what do you all read there........?


Is 'the faith of Abraham' [i]and New Testament believers[/i], simply [b]faith in God's existence[/b], or, is it specifically [b]faith in God's word[/b], (God's existence being taken as indubitable)?

Or, do you have some other interpretation?

 2006/11/6 11:20
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who?

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Is 'the faith of Abraham' [i]and New Testament believers[/i], simply [b]faith in God's existence[/b], or, is it specifically [b]faith in God's word[/b], (God's existence being taken as indubitable)?

Or, do you have some other interpretation?


[b]James 2:19[/b] [color=990000]You believe that God is One. You do well; [b]even the demons believe[/b] and shudder.[/color]

It's not faith in God's existence, but in His word
[b]Psalm 138:2[/b] [color=990000]I will worship toward Your holy temple, and give thanks to Your name for Your mercy, and for Your truth; for You have magnified Your Word upon all Your name.[/color]

 2006/11/6 12:41Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who?

Sis asked...

Quote:
Is 'the faith of Abraham' and New Testament believers, simply faith in God's existence, or, is it specifically faith in God's word, (God's existence being taken as indubitable)?



1. When He speaks, do you listen and obey?

2. What outcome do you observe from obedience?

3. What conclusions can you make based on the outcome?

This is the walk or ancient path...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/7 0:52Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end [shall be]: for they [are] a very froward generation, children in whom [is] no faith.

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by His faith.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

What Faith came? The Law shut all up unto this faith.

Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

How could anybody have faith in something that had not come yet.

The Holy Spirit had not come as He did at Pentecost with The Faith. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
His Fruit is Faith. If Faith is of Jesus Christ, then it has to be this Faith that saves by Grace through this Faith that only is available in Christ Jesus.

How is a man or woman justified? By the Christ that God has made unto us righteousness. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Only Justification can make righteous a sinner. Christ has been made our righteousness by God the Father.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Christ in us is the only righteousness be can be approved unto salvation by His Faith that Came with Him unto those that would believe that He is the Son of the Living God.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

As Christ is in the World in believers so are we as Christ in the World, by His Faith and Righteousness through Grace by the Father.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.

In this world who are we as? As He is. As His Faith, as His righteousness, being justified by His Faith, unto redemption and sanctification, through His Wisdom through the Faith that the Holy Spirit gives from the Fruit He can only give.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/11/8 0:47Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who?


Hi Phillip,

I agree that in our time, Jesus Christ is the author of our faith, but Romans 4 describes a righteousness by faith which God ascribed to Abraham.... which also amounts to [i]faith in His word[/i].


Tyndale's rendering:
from the modern-spelling edition by David Daniell, 1989.


What shall we say then, that Abraham our father as pertaining to the flesh, did find? If Abraham were justified by deeds, then hath he wherein to rejoice: but not with God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. To him that worketh, is the reward not reckoned of favour: but of duty. To him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungoldly, is his faith counted for righteousness. Even as David describeth the blessedfulness of the man unto whom God ascribeth righteousness without deeds. Blessed are they, whose unrighteousnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is that man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin.

Came this blessednesss then upon the circumcised or upon the uncircumcised? We say verily how that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it reckoned? In the time of circumcision? Or in the time before he was circumcised? Not in the time of circumcision: but when he was yet uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness which is by faith, which faith he had yet being uncircumcised: that he should be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also: and that he might be the father of the circumcised, not because they are circumcised only: but because they walk also in the steps of that faith that was in our father Abraham before the time of circumcision.

For the promise that he should be heir of the world, was not given to Abraham or to his seed through the law: but through the righteousness which cometh of faith. For if they which are of the law, be heirs, then is faith but vain and the promise of none effect. Because the law causeth wrath. For where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore by faith is the inheritance given, that it might come of favour: and the promise might be sure to all the seed. Not to them only which are of the law: but also to them which are of the faith of Abraham, which is the father of us all. As it is written: I have made thee a father to many nations, even before God whom thou hast believed, which quickeneth the dead, and called those things which be not, as though they were.

Which Abraham, contrary to hope, believed in hope, that he should be the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken: So shall thy seed be. And he fainted not in the faith, nor yet considered his own body which was now dead, even when he was almost an hundred year old: neither yet that Sara was past childbearing. He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief: but was made strong in the faith, and gave honour to God, full certified, that what he had promised that he was able to make good. And therefore was it reckoned to him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11 (NKJV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, [b]obeyed[/b] by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.


Here, Jesus Himself affirms that Abraham is alive.

Mark 12 (KJV)
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] [b]the God of Abraham[/b], and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 [b]He is[/b] not the God of the dead, but [b]the God of the living[/b]: ye therefore do greatly err.


John 8:56 (KJV)
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

 2006/11/8 9:47









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who?

rookie asked

1. When He speaks, do you listen and obey?

Answer: I believe so.... that is, when I hear Him. I have stopped trying to work out where my obedience will lead. I trust it is His best plan for me which will be worked out, as I live through the effects of my obedience.

2. What outcome do you observe from obedience?

Answer: Frankly, it's a mixed bag. One has to exercise faith and trust that one's roots in Him are being deepened, even when there is nothing exciting to show for that last step of faith one took. Only a sense of knowing all is well... sometimes not even that. And, even when there is a negative check in my spirit (which I obey), I accept it pretty much as if this is what I needed to know.... Thank you, Lord.

3. What conclusions can you make based on the outcome?

Answer: So far so good? 8-)

 2006/11/8 9:53
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Hi Linn,

I have a question, why is it that most people when it concerns faith, go to Abraham instead of the Faith of Christ? If I had The God of the Universe come to me and speak to me clearly and direct me to do exactly what He wanted me to do, I would believe also. So then why did Abraham not become Jesus Christ If he was so exalted in faith, that was counted to him as righteousness. Abraham only had counted righteousness, not birthed in the believer the righteousness of Christ. Made in us not counted. 1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Not in Abraham.

I see a different faith in Christ Jesus, I see the Faith of the Father Himself in Christ Jesus, this is a faith that I believe Abraham did not have. If it was the Faith of God that gave Jesus Christ in the Garden a picture of what He would have to endure to obey His Father and make good for all time The Faith of, "not my will but Yours be done," the Faith that I believe our new birth and becoming a new creature "in" Christ Jesus is given to the new birthed son's of God.

If I just had the faith of Abraham, not counted to me as faith by God, I would be of all men most lost. I believe that the Faith of Jesus Christ has been instilled in me by the birth of Jesus Christ, the Perfect Seed of God, that makes a new creature, not a copy of Abraham because of counted faith but an imputed faith by our new nature. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Only the nature of Christ can do the things of the law unto righteousness by His Faith. That Faith being born again in us makes the faith of Abraham counted, not the Faith by nature, which Only Christ Has, and has given the born again in Christ Jesus by the Perfect Seed of God, Jesus Christ in us the Hope of Glory, a new and more perfect Faith than that of, "counted faith" of Abraham.

I would much rather have the Faith of Christ than the counted faith of Abraham, then by birth, my Faith is His Faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

What makes us justified unto the righteousness of God? It is Christ in us, not the faith of Abraham. I am sure Abraham will say the same thing when we see him in The Kingdom of Christ on this earth in the millennium. My old faith did nothing for me except condemn me to hell. My new Faith in Christ has made me a son of God and by His Faith I can see and understand the thing of the Kingdom of God, and will be learning these things for all eternity.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/11/8 14:20Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who


Hi Phillip,

I do think there are different kinds of faith.

But, I think when Paul's thesis is that the faith of Abraham makes Christ available to both Jew and Gentile, the faith of Abraham, as much more than a symbolic faith - as a real and living faith in the word God spoke to him - is understood, and its relevance to preaching the gospel can be accepted.


I agree we are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ - and so is Abraham.

I think it is slightly unfair to compare 'the faith of Jesus Christ' with 'the faith of Abraham', as these are addressing different issues.

Really, that wasn't my point, and I don't think it was Paul's - which is why I quoted him.

My reason for quoting Romans in such length, is I thought it helps to show the [i]similarity[/i] of our faith, and that of Abraham. After all, both he, and we, are called upon to believe God's promise to us.

Isn't it just that simple?

Everyone needs a living relationship with the Father, such as both Abraham and Jesus had, and as God counted it righteousness to both of them.

 2006/11/8 15:51
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

The word of God is not divided in a way that will lead those who hear it and obey to different parts of God. Faith leads one to our Mediator....

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

God Bless Sis...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/11/11 7:48Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or who

rookie said

Quote:
The word of God is not divided in a way that will lead those who hear it and obey to different parts of God. Faith leads one to our Mediator....

Amen. I love that first chapter of Colossians, because we 'hear' the Father giving 'pre-eminence' to the Son.

This is a complementary counterbalance to John 10:29, 30 -

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.


I said
Quote:
I do think there are different kinds of faith.

Phillip, I think I should clarify this.

Faith is of God. We can work this out from the regular frustration which Jesus felt at the lack of faith He encountered - which is the normal human state of unbelief. This is why 'faith comes by hearing the word of God'. [i]Until[/i] we have heard the word of God - or a word from God - there is nothing to quicken our spirits towards Him.

BUT, 'the word of faith is nigh thee, even in thy mouth' (Romans 10), which is a quote from Deuteronomy. This is the wonder of prophecy..... that man can hear from God, and as he delivers the word of God [i][b]by mouth[/i][/b], the word of God acts upon the mind, spirit and heart of the 'unbeliever', and creates enough faith for them to leave their unbelief, and enter into faith..... that is, a [i][b]trust[/i][/b] in the reality of what they have heard.

How does a person 'know' that what they have heard is real?

John says 'He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.' (1 John 5:10)

This is strong stuff, but, it ties in completely with John 16:9

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 [b]Of sin, because they believe not on me[/b];

and with

Luke 3:22
And [b]the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him[/b], and a voice came from heaven, which said, [b]Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased[/b].


In other words, God places the responsibility on each person individually, to exercise their own judgment [i][b]and act on it[/i][/b] according to what He has said to them.


This is common denominator in 'faith'..... whether it is the first time you exercised it, or the last. Whether it led you into a second conversation with a believer, or a visit to church for the first time, or actively to put your life into the hands of Jesus Christ*, or, to take one more step, walking in the Spirit in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

* some people would call this 'saving faith'.

 2006/11/11 8:55





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