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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

I think Krispy hit on something key below.

The homosexual draws fire because he is organized as a social and political group. Adultery may be the most common secret sin, but adulterers aren't formally lobbying democrats for political and social elevation. Compromise and hypocrasy aside, adultery is categorized as a sin but homosexuality is categorized as an identity.

This probably explains why this particular sin is isolated and singled out. If swingers organized themselves and used politics and legislature to gain access into public education and churches under their sexual identity banner, then I believe they would draw similar fire.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/10/26 23:03Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Abominations

Quote:
It is one of the 'sins' that they can say, "look, I have not gone this far!"



Or in other words, pride.

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Part of the problem with this conjecture is that this is often made to be a single, seperate abomination;

Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [u]any[/u] of [u]these[/u] abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

Go back and read all of chapter 18. The problem it seems is one of being selective, from our stand point, the other is that to draw attention to the fact is to assume that lends a particular creedence or lessening of the one in question. Spliting hairs in our actuality, raising or lowering the degree according to [i]our[/i] particular disgust or lack thereof.

[b]Abomination[/b]

H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something [i]disgusting[/i] (morally), that is, (as noun) an [i]abhorrence[/i]; especially idolatry or (concretely) an [i]idol[/i]: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

The rub is also more pronounced if it is considered again how Jesus treated the situation with the woman caught in the act of adultery. The pride, the hypocrisy and the sin were all dealt with, in that order. We might be able to draw some conclusions from that not only in what might constitute the 'level' of importance in God's sight but also by the manner of how they were each dealt with by the Lord. This sin is in the list of abominations that the same one in question is drawn from.

[i]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.[/i]
Luk 18:9-14


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Mike Balog

 2006/10/26 23:17Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 i see some light

bro Mike C
i bless God for you bro because through you i think i see clearly what Krispy has been trying to get across. i never thought of the lobbying homosexuals do and that adulterers don't do that...well maybe not for adultery related issues in politics anyway. we can't ignore that aspect of it and i agree with that, though i am concerned though that we do not examine ourselves enough nor live as we ought so that our lives may testify against this sin. it is hard to do so if we are caught up in adulteries and so on because it does kill our witness. thanks for openning my eyes to that. ok bro Krispy i see part of why you get so fired up, i hope you see why i get so fired up about adultery. adultery is a far more common thing and while it is known to be sin, i don't think we take it as seriously as homosexuality although it is more rampant in the church and has done much more damage in the church also.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/27 0:37Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: i see some light

Quote:
live as we ought so that our lives may testify against this sin.



You are so right Iron.

The singular political and social front of homosexual lobby I mentioned has willingly engaged in public combat... but our 'fighting' homosexuality will not distract God's notice of our own horrible sins. In fact the homosexual lobby may be emoboldened precisely because those who claim to be Godly in our society do not pattern a fear of God.

It will take more then social and political power to stem the tide of perversion...too little reaction too late.

Your comment above reminded me of an analogy I saw for the church last week while watching a video explanation of nuclear energy.

If we take a little firecracker and light it's fuse we unleash it's chemical power and it explodes briefly and makes a noise and maybe even an impressive light show. However, the chemical power contained in the firecracker is nothing when compared to the nuclear power stored in it's atoms. If the nuclear energy of a tiny firecracker could ever be unleashed then the power is measured on a completely different...and quite unbelievable scale.

Likewise the church lives too much along the short fuse of it's emotional, political, economic, and even moral urgency...and is not unleashing true spiritual power which comes less from exertion and more from abiding. Here I am careful to not confuse pyrotechnic displays of supernaturalism with spiritual power. By spiritual power I mean the character of Christ, that state of living wherein we are diminished and Jesus is increased in even the most secret and banal parts of our daily existence.

Because we view many spiritual battles as external struggles, and because we seek an external victory that glories in the Church's will to triumph... rather then first a surrendering of the Church's will to Christ...well we have no inner life...and no power. At least that is how I see these things.

Bless God for understanding between us Ironman. It really is sweet when brothers dwell in unity!

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/10/27 1:50Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Murray

Quote:

murdog wrote:
Brethren,

Very good responses! Ironman, your first response hit me like a train. Many of the so called church, myself included are such hypocrites.

When are we going to clean the inside of the dish.

Quote:
Repent, Repent, Repent or we shall surely Die!



Murray



indeed bro, i'm convicted of my own sins in this area, my own fornications and so on. God does not take those things lightly at all...also like the word says, unless you repent, you will likewise perish...God help us repent lest we perish also.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/28 13:06Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Crsschk

thanks for that lesson bro, i'm reminded of Christ's warning, except ye repent, you shall likewise perish...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/28 15:16Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Mike Compton

Quote:
The singular political and social front of homosexual lobby I mentioned has willingly engaged in public combat... but our 'fighting' homosexuality will not distract God's notice of our own horrible sins. In fact the homosexual lobby may be emoboldened precisely because those who claim to be Godly in our society do not pattern a fear of God.



bro Mike, bro Mike, bro Mike, this is the thing which weighs heavy on my heart and i bless God for those who share this burden. God knows i need every now and then to hear from Him through such a one! it seems to me we are aware that the world is going to receive it's judgement from God, and it richly deserves it. however we have forgotten that judgment begins at the House of God. we have forgotten that we too will be judged for our own transgressions and if the world deserves it's judgement, how much more then do we deserve it since we are called by His Name, and bought of His Blood and yet we behave like the world? God sees their sin and He for sure sees ours. indeed the homosexual lobby has been much emboldened by our hypocracy. i think it was New Jersey this past week passed a law allowing homosexual marriages. we're trying to get the constitution ammended to say marriage should be for men and women only, a noble thing but then the divorce rate is 50% or so. YIKES! so the argument then becomes "well how does homosexual marriage infringe on heterosexual marriage when the divorce rate is already so high?" noble as it may be, our lives do not have the power to back this up.because of our own lack of fear for God, the heathen speak so evily of Him. i've seen some of the horrendous things said by atheists, seen some of their videos on youtube. it is astouding.

Quote:
If we take a little firecracker and light it's fuse we unleash it's chemical power and it explodes briefly and makes a noise and maybe even an impressive light show. However, the chemical power contained in the firecracker is nothing when compared to the nuclear power stored in it's atoms. If the nuclear energy of a tiny firecracker could ever be unleashed then the power is measured on a completely different...and quite unbelievable scale.



i bless God for you bro! thank you Father Son and Holy Ghost! the above analogy was most powerful.



Quote:
Likewise the church lives too much along the short fuse of it's emotional, political, economic, and even moral urgency...and is not unleashing true spiritual power which comes less from exertion and more from abiding. Here I am careful to not confuse pyrotechnic displays of supernaturalism with spiritual power. By spiritual power I mean the character of Christ, that state of living wherein we are diminished and Jesus is increased in even the most secret and banal parts of our daily existence.



indeed bro indeed. i couldn't have put it in a better way so Got had you do it! and that is something we need to really get a grip on.

Quote:
Because we view many spiritual battles as external struggles, and because we seek an external victory that glories in the Church's will to triumph... rather then first a surrendering of the Church's will to Christ...well we have no inner life...and no power. At least that is how I see these things.



WHOA! this is heavy stuff right here, if our lives aren't backing up what we're saying, it's not going to impact anyone because there is no evidence...bless you bro.

Quote:
Bless God for understanding between us Ironman. It really is sweet when brothers dwell in unity!



bless God indeed bro because it is a most wondeful thing when brothers can be in unity because it is evidence of the same SPirit at work in us.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/28 17:53Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re: Did anyone else notice this.....?

Here is one place in the scripture that speaks of this sin and is quoted by many to show God hates homosexuality:


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


This is where many stop with their bible reading. It is very easy to pick out these verses and stop, but the Word goes on to the next verse to describe some more things about these reprobate people.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Many of the people who spend so much time on the sin of homosexuality forget that these later sins describe sins that they have had or even currently have in their own life, sins that are common in the church. This word goes on though to the next verse:

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


It seems to me that these last verses speak to the person who has some of the above listed sins in his or her life and yet speaks about the wrong of the sin he or she is in or another sin that is in the list. But, why stop reading the Word now, because it goes on. To keep from copying the whole text to Romans 3:23 I will select scriptures.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Rom 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law,
through breaking the law dishonorest thou God?


This next verse is especially significant when considering this subject or any other specific sin. If you consider the first three chapters of Romans as a unit instead of picking out the homosexual sin, you get a different understanding than the person who rails on the sin of homosexuality and not other sins that are common.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Don't you just love these next verses. Don't forget to read verse 27 because this verse has to do with the first three chapters of Romans. I have a bible that the pages have pulled out at Romans chapter three and 1 John 1:6 to 2:2. The verses that follow are good too.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


Homosexuality needs to be identified as sin in order for a person to repent, however, it is important to identify these other sins also and by compassion bring people from a place of condemnation and confiction to a place of mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. It is my opinion that unless the messenger can speak a word picture from conviction to mercy and grace, the message is useless.



GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2006/10/28 19:48Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Compton wrote:
If swingers organized themselves and used politics and legislature to gain access into public education and churches under their sexual identity banner, then I believe they would draw similar fire.



I think one could safely say that the "swingers" have organised themselves and used something far more powerful than "politics and legislature" to lobby their agenda. The "lobby group" is called Hollywood, and the means is media, period. Consider the last time that you heard of a movie coming out that didn't have a hint of fornication or adultery in it. I can't think of one, and that's including children's movies.

Our society has been slowly being indoctrinated to accept these sins as the norm, with even many Christians being unable to work out where to draw the line in the sand. If we boil it down to raw idealism, even a family outing to the beach is an abomination, but how do you explain that to the woman who wouldn't consider commiting adultery and objects to men's lustfulness, but desires a sun tan, and to enjoy the beach, which is God's creation?

We can get all dogmatic about it, but where does it end, do we require everyone to walk around in a burka so as to avoid being carried away by lust, as result of making eye contact with an attractive pair of eyes? Meanwhile, Hollywood would have every right to laugh at us, knowing that they have fuelled this problem, by getting every teenage boy to lust after the latest starlet, while at the same time pating him on the back for being a "red blooded male".

I remember when I first became a Christian, and heard that statistically few teenagers had lost their virginity, and that generally their talk was bigger than reality, with them being more likely to boast of exaggerated conquests, than to put legs on their lust. Now, promoscuity is rampant, with many actually following through.

Few people realise that when the likes of Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt set out to turn the world upside down with their pornographic magazines, that their goal was to liberate the world from, what they understood to be a mere "cultural taboo" that limited people from doing what they wanted to do, which was be promiscuous. In their eyes, they were bringing liberty to the western world, who were all bound up in the monogamous understanding of relationships. Just as we Christians seek to help the world realise the bondage that they are in as a result of their embracing of sin, and rejecting God, using whatever means necessary, they too saw their "crusade" as an urgent one, and pursued it with such ferverance that would put many Christians to shame.

Yes, the Gay lobby is a militant group that represents a minority, but once so to was the "free love" movement. Now days it is to go heavily against the grain of the world to even blush at some of the horrendous things that are portrayed as normal.

Murray has raised such an important issue, however I hope that we learn from history, and not ignore the Homosexual Agenda, as it becomes more and more accepted. If necessary, we must fight on many fronts, so to speak, by holding up the holiness and righteousness of God, so that the sinfulness of the world can once again appear sinful. The Adultery and Fornication agendas have come to the point where they are self replicating. No one needs to "go up the hill", so to speak, because everyone is bringing their diluted morality into the polling booth. Homosexuality hasn't quite reached this point yet, however, if things continue the way it has been going, it won't be long.

God help us to fight Your fight, as we raise Your standard and echo Your Spirit's convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, that they may receive godly sorrow and repent that the times of refreshing may come as they put their trust in You. However, as You did in days of old, begin in Your sanctuary, that Your righteousness may be displayed on the earth once again.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/10/29 5:14Profile









 Re: i see some light

Quote:
i bless God for you bro because through you i think i see clearly what Krispy has been trying to get across. i never thought of the lobbying homosexuals do and that adulterers don't do that...well maybe not for adultery related issues in politics anyway. we can't ignore that aspect of it and i agree with that, though i am concerned though that we do not examine ourselves enough nor live as we ought so that our lives may testify against this sin. it is hard to do so if we are caught up in adulteries and so on because it does kill our witness. thanks for openning my eyes to that. ok bro Krispy i see part of why you get so fired up, i hope you see why i get so fired up about adultery. adultery is a far more common thing and while it is known to be sin, i don't think we take it as seriously as homosexuality although it is more rampant in the church and has done much more damage in the church also.



Ya know, IRONMAN... I'm learning something by being on this forum. That is this: I dont have to respond to everything people fire back at me. When I said what I did in my first post you came back with a legit question. I thought about whether I should respond right away, and you and I have the kind of relationship on this forum where I know you wont get upset if I dont respond right away. Instead I decided to sit back and see if perhaps someone else might clarify my statements for me, and if perhaps you might gain further insight into my thoughts on this subject.

The really cool thing is... both things happened!

Is there a difference between sin and abomination? Not in the long run... they both result in death. But for me, this particular sin is an afront to God. It has become a very prideful sin. Ever heard of a "Gay [b]Pride[/b]" Parade? How appropriately named is that?

Pride and selfishness is at the root of every sin. But not many sins are so much in the face of God as homosexuality. Not many sins go against nature as homosexuality. Paul refers over and over again to the "natural man". Thanks to Adam... sin is natural. Trust me... it is very natural for a man to look on a woman with lust. This particular sin is one I know very well. (Just being honest!) It's something I struggle with everyday, as does any man who is honest with himself.

But Paul referred to homosexuality as "not having natural effection". He also accused homosexuals of abandoning the "natural use" of the woman, and vice versa.

I have many friends in law enforcement, and in most states that still have laws on the books criminalizing homosexuality (also called [b]Sodom[/b]y) it is referred to a "crime against nature".

Theft is not against nature, in fact it's quite natural. Lying is very natural for all of us.

But homosexuality is pretty much in a league by itself.

People will argue till the cows come home that it is very natural for some to be homosexual. Not ever having been one myself I can not address that. Perhaps many are convinced that is true.

But thats [b]NOT[/b] what the Word of God says. And the Bible is my final authority on all matters. If the Bible says it isnt natural, then it is not natural, and that settles it for me.

And when mankind yells out "We're here... We're queer... get used to it!" they are not yelling that at me (even tho they think they are)... they are yelling that in the face of the Thrice Holy Creator God.

And when someone says God created someone a homosexual they are making God out to be a pervert. Pretty strong, I know... but thats the truth.

Krispy

 2006/10/30 9:24





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