| Poster | Thread | JaySaved
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Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Did Esau lose 'salvation' or the 'birthright'? Did he lose 'eternal life' or 'the blessing'? Is 'the purpose of God' my personal salvation or is it something much larger than that of which my personal salvation is but a part? The 'purpose of God' must go on and if Esau rejected it, God must establish another 'carrier'. God, of course, knew this before the event and predicted that 'the elder would serve the younger'. Again, this would not seem to have reference to personal salvation but to the ongoing purpose of God.
God's election of Jacob over Esau was that God chose Jacob for himself and did not choose Esau. God still had a 'purpose' and a 'role' for both of them. You seem to be saying that Esau lost his 'purpose of God' because he rejected it. In doing this you are missing the important part of Romans 9:11-12, "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badin order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls...".
We must understand that God did not make his announcement that 'the elder would serve the younger' based on what Esau did or did not do. The Bible makes it explicitly clear that God's purpose in election is not by works. Election had nothing to do with Esau's works. This actually means that Esau fulfilled God's plan by selling his birthright.
Election does not mean that God sees the future and plans accordingly. Election does mean that God determines the future before it will happen and He sees that it comes about.
God chose Jacob over Esau. God did this not based on anything Jacob or Esau had done, but simply because God wanted it to be done.
Now, you mention that you believe Election refers to 'our purpose of God in which salvation is part of but is not limited to'. You believe that Election refers to something much larger than salvation.
I wish you would explain this in more detail. I do not want to put words into your mouth so I will not comment on that more at this time.
Quote:
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom 9:12-13 KJVS) It is important to remember that this quotation from Malachi was a word spoken by God 1300 years after both Esau and Jacob were resting in their graves. The passage in Malachi seems to be clearly speaking of 'nations' rather than individuals.
Can God love the nation of Jacob without first loving Jacob? Can God hate the nation of Esau without first hating Esau?
I will defer to Charles Spurgeon on this issue. I took this from the sermon 'Jacob and Esau' at this website:
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0239.htm
"Some of the Wesleyan brethren say, that there is a national election; God has chosen one nation and not another. They turn round and tell us it is unjust in God to choose one man and not another. Now, we ask them by everything reasonable, is it not equally unjust of God to choose one nation and leave another? The argument which they imagine overthrows us overthrows them also. There never was a more foolish subterfuge than that of trying to bring out national election. What is the election of a nation but the election of so many units, of so many people? and it is tantamount to the same thing as the particular election of individuals. In thinking, men cannot see clearly that ifwhich we do not for a moment believethat if there be any injustice in God choosing one man and not another, how much more must there be injustice in his choosing one nation and not another. No! the difficulty cannot be got rid of thus, but is greatly increased by this foolish wresting of God's Word. Besides, here is the proof that that is not correct; read the verse preceding it. It does not say anything at all about nations, it says, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger,"referring to the children, not to the nations. Of course the threatening was afterwards fulfilled in the position of the two nations; Edom was made to serve Israel. But this text means just what it says; it does not mean nations, but it means the persons mentioned. "Jacob,"that is the man whose name was Jacob" Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." |
|  2006/10/24 17:41 | Profile | myfirstLove
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Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496
| | Re: | | i find the verse in jeremiah 1:5 very interesting.
before I formed you in the womb i KNEW you.......
could this mean to say that God knew how jeremiah would be like and the choices he would make, before any works could be commited? just like esau and jacob? He knew what kind of persons they would be, so He would know who to use for His own purposes to get His way done? just like judas? God knew judas before he was formed. like maybe, He KNEW judas would have an evil heart to betray that He knew to use judas for His purposes? not that God made Him commit the sin of betrayal, but He saw before hand that judas would choose to do so.
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Lisa
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| | 2006/10/24 18:36 | Profile | PreachParsly
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Posts: 2164
Arkansas
| | Re: | | I guess what has always perplexed me is that if God does will (choose)some to be saved and some not to be saved, it isn't really by faith but rather God's choice. In my mind it turns from "whosever will believe" to "whosoever God chose."
It seems to change the determining factor from faith to something else.
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2006/10/24 18:52 | Profile | IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | myrfirstlove
Quote:
could this mean to say that God knew how jeremiah would be like and the choices he would make, before any works could be commited? just like esau and jacob? He knew what kind of persons they would be, so He would know who to use for His own purposes to get His way done? just like judas? God knew judas before he was formed. like maybe, He KNEW judas would have an evil heart to betray that He knew to use judas for His purposes? not that God made Him commit the sin of betrayal, but He saw before hand that judas would choose to do so.
would that not be like Go reacting to our actions? the word for forknowledge (if i remember right) can also be rendered fore-ordained putting God (in my view) where He ought to be, in charge. As far as i am concerned, i know God initiates salvation and indeed has already seen to it from before the setting of the foundations of the world. In JOhn 6 65 Christ says noone can come to Him unless the Father draws Him and without coming to Christ, noone can go to the Father. That speaks of the total hopelessness of our state. we are so lost that unless God moves and draws us to Christ, we have no hope of being reconciled to Him.
We have some measure of free will but even that is in the confines of God's own sovereign will and we must realize that. God's plan for bringing us to salvation is not simply for our salvation but the ultimate purpose for all creation to to bring Him glory. The issue of our will being subject to God's own to me speaks of God's own grace and mercy. the 2 in our minds seem mutually exclusive i bet, even contradictory but there is no such contradiction in the mind of God. Both serve the common purpose of glorifying Him who made all things. We can't ignore the fact that the word tells us that we ought to choose, but then again we can't ignore the principle of election which we see not just in Romans chapt 9 but spread out in most of Paul's letters as he speaks about "you who were called/chosen" Election to me speaks of God's grace and mercy on me and also assures Him of ALL the glory for saving a wretch as myself.
for those of us who are vessels of mercy, let us seek God and act as He would have us act to His glory. AMEN.
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/10/24 18:55 | Profile | bluinos
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Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78
| | Re: | | Quote:
God chose Jacob over Esau. God did this not based on anything Jacob or Esau had done, but simply because God wanted it to be done.
[color=0033CC]This is correct they were born of the same mother and father, yes. They were twins.[/color] |
| | 2006/10/24 18:55 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | Quote:
PreachParsly wrote:
I guess what has always perplexed me is that if God does will (choose)some to be saved and some not to be saved, it isn't really by faith but rather God's choice. In my mind it turns from "whosever will believe" to "whosoever God chose."
It seems to change the determining factor from faith to something else.
but isn't the Faith which is required to believe God a gift from above also? at the end of the day it all rests on God because the purpose of all this is to glorify God. as maker of all things He does have the ability to do as He chooses even if it doesn't quite make sense on this end...but oh when we get There...
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/10/24 18:57 | Profile | PreachParsly
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Posts: 2164
Arkansas
| | Re: | | Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Does this have to be interpreted that "every man" means those in the church?
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2006/10/24 19:37 | Profile | mamalluk
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Joined: 2006/10/21
Posts: 18
| | Re:Election and Freewill according to Scriptures | | John 15:16
[b]Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,[/b] and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you
John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, [b]but I have chosen you out of the world, [/b]therefore the world hateth you.
Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God [b]according to election[/b] might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 9: 14-16
What then shall we say?[b] Is God unjust? [/b]Not at all! For he says to Moses,"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[b]It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. [/b]For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: [b]"Then why does God still blame us?[/b] For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Ephesians 1:4
According as [b]He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, [/b]that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because [b]God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[/b] ( Praise God for this gift )
1 Peter 1:2
[b]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God [/b]the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to [b]make your calling and election sure: [/b]for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[color=0000CC]"Whosoever will?" :
Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/color]
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| | 2006/10/24 20:30 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
could this mean to say that God knew how jeremiah would be like and the choices he would make, before any works could be commited?
No disrespect but that doesn't make much sense. That would be saying that God chose me because of my decisions and actions and then stating that my salvation is not based on any works that I have done.
Quote:
just like esau and jacob? He knew what kind of persons they would be, so He would know who to use for His own purposes to get His way done? just like judas? God knew judas before he was formed. like maybe, He KNEW judas would have an evil heart to betray that He knew to use judas for His purposes? not that God made Him commit the sin of betrayal, but He saw before hand that judas would choose to do so.
Ironman is on to the right answer.
Romans 8:28-30 says, And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
We see the following things:
1. God works all things for the good of those who love him.
2. Those who love him have been called according to Gods purpose.
3. Those who have been called were previously foreknown.
4. God foreknew people, not just their actions.
5. The people whom God foreknew, those are the ones that he also predestined.
6. These whom God foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.
7. God predestined the foreknown so that Jesus would be the firstborn among many brothers.
8. Those whom God foreknown and predestined, those are the ones that he also called.
9. Those whom God had foreknown and predestined and called, those are the ones he justified.
10. Those whom God had foreknown and predestined and called and justified, those are the ones whom he also glorified.
11. A person cannot be glorified unless he is justified.
12. A person cannot be justified unless he is called.
13. A person cannot be called unless he is predestined.
14. A person cannot be predestined unless he is foreknown.
Place this in the context that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works so that no man may boast and you see that those who are foreknown were foreknown and chosen through the mercy and grace of God alone, not based on their future actions.
Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that salvation is not by works but it is by grace. Why do we then try to say that God chooses people based on their actions?
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| | 2006/10/24 20:33 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Does this have to be interpreted that "every man" means those in the church?
Romans 12 (KJV)
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
Seems to be talking about every person at the church. What was your interpretation?
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| | 2006/10/24 20:39 | Profile |
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