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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791

 The image of the beast

[b]Rev 13:14[/b] [color=990000]And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the signs which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword, and lived.[/color]
A better translation of this would be: “giving speeches to those dwelling on the earthto appoint or ordain a figure or representative to the beast....

[b]Rev 13:15[/b] [color=990000]And was given to it to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak, (And was given to it that it) might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.[/color]
This is saying that the beast gives authority to the ordained figure or representative to make what he says to be the law of the beast. Furthermore the Beast makes law that whoever does not give respectful submission or yield to the judgment, opinion, will, to the ordained figure would be put to death.

 2006/10/21 0:20Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707

 Re: The image of the beast

Quote: "This is saying that the beast gives authority to the ordained figure or representative to make what he says to be the law of the beast. Furthermore the Beast makes law that whoever does not give respectful submission or yield to the judgment, opinion, will, to the ordained figure would be put to death."

Setting himself up as god with the whole earth under his law, like the old testament Israel of God under His Law. This has nothing to do with the Body of Christ who are already Seated with Christ in the Father's House having brought His Bride to His Father's House.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/10/21 1:59Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



Christinyou wrote:
This has nothing to do with the Body of Christ who are already Seated with Christ in the Father's House having brought His Bride to His Father's House.

Actualy, this will be in the time line that the church is still on the earth.

 2006/10/22 20:19Profile

Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122



How is that you find the church still on earth at this time? Those who believe after the rapture are not of the "church" but individual ententes. Not counting the 144,000 sealed Jews.

I am open to a different interpretation but this is the only one I know.

 2006/10/22 20:33Profile

Joined: 2006/10/18
Posts: 4

 Re: Ipod/MP3

Doug...please forgive my entering into this conversation but I was wondering if you could tell me how to download MP3 files from this site to the Ipod...I have tried everything I know w/o success and I can't find any directions on the web site. When I right click on a file it reads "visit" and doesn't download anything. Ideas? Suggestions? tks. jg

 2006/10/22 20:48Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791

 Re: 144,000

By the way, I believe in pre-wrath rapture.

Chapter 14 is the next Capter
[b]Rev 14:1[/b] [color=990000]And I looked and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion and amidst Him were the hundred and forty four thousands, with the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.[/color] (Ref. 7:5-8)
[b]]Note:[/b] If we should take “the Lamb as symbolic, we should also take that Mount Zion is too.
Sometimes Scripture calls all of Jerusalem or even the church "Zion" or "Mt. Zion".

This coinsides with the other 144000 in Chapter 7:

The 144000 is an analogy, it is not a list of the tribes of Israel. Notice that, Even though Reuben is the firstborn instead of Judah, it begins with the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and was the firstborn from the dead He is put first. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [b]Col 1:15,18[/b]. [color=990000]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:[/color]

Josephs is also listed along with his two sons. The Bible tells us Joseph gave his birthright (which should have been Reubens’ [b]1Chron 5:1[/b] Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.) to his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Even though his two sons had the same land they are often spoken of as two separate tribes. Jacob also gave Ephraim the blessing and not Manasseh, who is the eldest, but we see Manasseh here and not his brother.

Priests never inherited any land; [b]Jos 14:3[/b]. For Moses had given the inheritance of two tribes and an half tribe on the other side Jordan: but unto the Levites he gave none inheritance among them. The tribe of Levi is included here when they were never included in inheritance before; the reason is because we are a holy priesthood and a royal priesthood 1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [b]1Peter 2:9[/b] [color=990000]But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:[/color]

This analogy does not have Dan probably because of Idolatry. In conclusion, If God was actually giving us a list of the tribes of Israel; He would have just put them in order of birth and inheritance, and wouldn’t add or leave a Patriarch out.

It then says that each one of them was sealed. A seal is made from wax that has been imprinted on with a signet ring. Today we use our name as our seal. Since it is a unique way of writing our name, it is a personal seal that we call our signature. We will only put our signature on thing that we agree to or approve of. This is saying that God has put his approval on them. [b]2Corinth 1:22[/b] [color=990000]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.[/color] [b]Eph 1:13[/b] [color=990000]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 4:30 and grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.[/color]

This is how the Tribes are placed in [b]Revelation 7:5-8[/b]
I will put the tribes’ actual placement number to where it should be it the order of their birth

The first name is Judah. #4.

The second name is Reuben. #1.

The third one is called Gad. #8.

The fourth name is Asher. #9.

The fifth name is Naphtali. #10.

The sixth name is Manasseh.

The seventh name is Simeon. #2.

The eighth name is Levi. #3.

The ninth name is Issachar. #6.

The tenth named is Zebulon. #5.

The eleventh is Joseph. #11.

Remember, there is no actually no tribe of Joseph, but there is here. He gave his inheritance to his sons. He gave his inheritance to his sons.

The twelfth is, Benjamin. #12

This is the true Israel of God Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (the Church and saved Israel). When the time of the gentiles is complete, God will then move His attention to Israel once again and Israel will be completed and saved. [b]Romans 2:29[/b] [color=990000]But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.[/color] [b]Rom 11:15-32[/b] [color=990000]For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? [b]:16[/b] For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. [b]:17[/b] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; [b]:18[/b] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root thee. [b]:19[/b] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. [b]:20[/b] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou stands by faith. Be not high minded, but fear [b]:21[/b] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [b]:22[/b] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [b]:23[/b] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. [b]:24[/b] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? [b]:25[/b] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [b]until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. :26[/b] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob [b]:27[/b] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [b]:28[/b] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [b]:29[/b] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [b]:30][/b] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [b]:31[/b] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [b]:32[/b] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/color]

What about this number, 144,000? Notice that John said he heard the number, he didn’t see it; this tells us that it isn’t an amount (as in quantity) of people, it must mean something else. The number 12 represents 12 tribes of Israel from the Old Testament and 12 Apostles of the New Testament. The number 1000 represents from Hebrew, the sense of yoking or taming an ox or joining together, maturity and full stature.
Let’s do some math.
12 x 12 = 144. Then it multiplies 12 by 1000 in which we see above the meaning of these numbers, Israel and the Church being yoked together in peace. So we see the 144000 as the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament. The completed Israel of God.

This idea of the 144,000 being the whole Church and saved Israel also makes sense because we see the next part of the chapter from v: 9 as the rapture taking place.

 2006/10/22 22:00Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Doug

How is that you find the church still on earth at this time? Those who believe after the rapture are not of the "church" but individual ententes. Not counting the 144,000 sealed Jews.

because judgement begins in the house of the Lord before it goes out to the world. also read the letters to the 7 Churches. 5 of the 7 have things to repent of or else Christ will come in judgement of them. also we are admonished by Christ to endure till the end. Personally if judgement begins with us as the word says, we will not be raptured untill after that judgement comes. obviously the world deserves the judgment that is due it, but we are also richly deserving of God's wrath because we should know better. Part of the reason of why the world is as it is has to do with us not being as we ought thereby giving the world no reason to repent because we ourselves have lost our savour as the salt of the earth...

i must ask though, why are we looking to be raptured out of here? i pray we are not trying to escape our responsibilities here before they are done because we will be sorely disappointed. the danger is that most saints seem to think they can chill and be raptured. the arguement i've heard is Jesus is not going to have a beaten and bloodied bride up there...well He's not going to accept a raggedy one such as we are now either so we WILL go through the Refiner's fire. if it is tribulation then so be it, one way or another we have to get cleaned.

i don't think the rapture will be as big an event as most think because during those days of judgement there will be many saints here or else Christ would not have told us not to take the mark or spoken of those who would be martyred in those days as being the ones to rule with Him 1000 yrs.

Noah was raptured through the flood, not whisked away from it and it seems to me that God has set that as a precedent so we should expect to be raptured through. even when God judged Israel in the old days, many righteous men suffered alongside their unrighteous brothers, like Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Daniel and so on. if God is the same yesterday today and forever, then it is obvious we have to suffer to be cleansed first.

from Revelation 7
b]13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b]

Whether God achieves this through the Tribulation or not is of no consequence. we have to come through tribulation to have our robes washed clean in the blood of the lamb.

brethren, if we are raptured then it is all good, we have nothing to worry about, but if we are not raptured, how will you feel and what will you do? i feel we ought to stop and seriously consider that for ourselves.

Farai Bamu

 2006/10/23 11:38Profile

Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131


I respectfully encourage all to listen to the mp3's provided on this site by Edgar Parkyns on Revelation. They are very eye opening sermons on Revelation and the end times as well as church history.

 2006/10/23 11:55Profile

Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122

 Re: I see now

Hi Logic,

I now see why our interpretations concerning end times event is so different. It is not the event, rather our views of these events. I interpret whenever possible all scripture literally.

Note: If we should take “the Lamb as symbolic, we should also take that Mount Zion is too.

I do not take this Lamb or Mount Zion as being symbolic. God did not speak to believers in some mysterious way. No, they were simple men, Galilean fishermen at that, who were not theologians. Hence the simplicity of the parables.

You may know all ready that I hold to neither pre, post, mid, or pan trib theories. I follow the tree commands Messiah did give in the Olivet discourse.

Watchful- Matt. 24:38

Ready- Matt. 24:44

Obedient- Matt 24:46

These are the only definite's I can find as spoken commands given by our King. When the caught up occurs is not that important to me as it is to some.

May I ask if you have ever consulted the early church leaders, Pre A.D. 33, so as to see how they interpreted the end times? I know that they held to eminent return. This can be found in the "Didache". See

Got to go for now.

In Christ, bro Doug

 2006/10/24 22:37Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


Dougmore wrote:

I do not take this Lamb or Mount Zion as being symbolic.

Surly, there wil not be a literal lamb standing on Mount Zion? Baaaaa.
Lamb is symbolic for Jesus as Mount Zion is symbolic for Israel or Jerusalem.

Here is when you should interpret this scripture not literally, but symbolicly. Otherwise, you have a litteral lamb on a mountain for who knows what purpose. Further more, you have 144000 men having a litteral lamb's dad's name written on their foreheads.

 2006/10/25 11:12Profile

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