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 Re: Church problems

It is things like this that make me want to just move away to a random country and be missionary and forget everything, but I am pretty sure that this is not God's will at this moment.

Hi Jacob,

I liked your summary of how you feel, and the honesty you applied to reinterpreting your instincts to your understanding.

roadsign gave you a great testimony and good advice, as did Compton regarding how to view 'theology'. It appears to my spirit that you do know the Lord and as you wait on Him and ask Him for specific understandning - knowledge and wisdom - and strive to hold on to the unity of Spirit with those who have the Spirit, the Lord will lead you out of your confusion, step by step. One step at a time is all you need to know. And just keep trusting Him.

 2006/10/20 8:08

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri



What is Arminianism or Calvinism without the Holy Spirit? And what are they once we are filled with the Holy Spirit? Theology can teach and point us towards a correct understanding of God...but these things can not give us a life-giving relationship with Him.

I think Mike is spot on here. We always seem to be running the risk of either too much or too little emphasis on our doctrines. It saddens me greatly that folk would be put out of a church because they hold those beliefs.

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/10/20 8:28Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7531

 Re: Church Problems


Another point to carefully consider: exactly what are my reasons for leaving this church? Is it really honestly and truly over doctrine? or is because of a power struggle going on or personality conflicts? Sometimes personal issues masquarade as doctrinal ones. If any of these factor in and are causing you unrest in your spirit you will need to take a hard look at the basic issues fueling the controversy.

It is not uncommon for young people to become dissatisfied with the church they were raised in, they strain at the unnecessary (they think) restraints imposed on them. So they leave, and for what? For more liberty to indulge in worldliness without fear of any confrontation by others in the group. This leads to a lukewarm attitude towards sin and then sin becomes the norm. Hence, the apostasy in the church.

I have seen where people left because of personal issues and they take their problems right with them and create problems wherever they go.

Just thought I would share this for your consideration.


Sandra Miller

 2006/10/20 10:25Profile

 Re: Church Problems

I myself am not reformed, but I don't mind if people view things this way, as long as they are truly seeking God (as with any viewpoint).

Ummm... I have a problem with this. It DOES matter what people believe doctrinally. [b]Especially[/b] leaders in the church. Being sincere doesnt make things ok. Hitler was very sincere.

I commend your other church leaders for taking such a stand.


 2006/10/20 13:10

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Brother I again have to say that probably the sooner you go the better. I do not believe that they are truly worried about the doctrinal problem as much as how it would impact their little kingdom.
I went to this church for a short time, and after knowing what my brother and others have gone through to maintain any semblance to godly living, I would say find another like minded individual or group. It's not like you don't have a good brother who has a prayer meeting at his house.
Saddest of all the C.E.O. is loved and adored by so many, and yet when it comes time for crusades there is no mention of Jesus on any of the stickers, or posters, or billboards just all about him, and sadly I believe there are men there who want to be just like him, and not like Christ.
I hope that this helps as perhaps I am one of the few that knows exactly what you are talking about, and it grieves me to say it will not change, because their structure is so set that it cannot.
It is the business model, and a display of pragmatism. That whole denomination(group) is set up that way.
Have a conference, get everyone together to network, get everyone excited about the product (in this case Jesus, but not the Biblical Jesus), everyone gets "fired up", and then back into the field to sell the product to build the business, increase consumers i.e. church goers, and build up the pyramid ;-) .
Now multiply this successful formula times a couple thousand, and you've got a wonderful corporation. (Yes it is now a Corporation, and the head. Papers were filed a couple weeks ago).

patrick heaviside

 2006/10/20 13:33Profile

 Lord Jesus

make it plain. Keep me simple, keep me foolish, keep me with the faith of a child, and protect me from some of your follower's, In Jesus Name I pray..amen


 2006/10/20 13:33

 Re: Lord Jesus

I admit to skimming this thread when I posted what I did. Let me make a clarification...

If a church has a leader who is delving into wrong doctrine, the leadership of the church has a responsibility before God to correct the person. If the person refuses, then they have a responsibility before God to put him out for the better of the church, and also so that hopefully this person will see the error and repent.

I applaud any church leadership that has the guts to do this. Most do not, and that's one of the main reasons the church is in the shape it's in.

Now... that does not mean that every church leadership that exercises this does it correctly. Many times spiritual pride plays a role, or there is a power-play. This should not be. Everything should be done in order and in love. If there is spiritual abuse going on here, or a power struggle, then they are as guilty before God as the man they are trying to put out.

I do stand by what I said.... that not caring what people's views are, so long as they are sincere is a grave error. Sound doctrine does matter! Read Titus and 1 & 2 Timothy. Paul was adament about sound doctrine, and how to treat those who would pervert it.

As for Calvinism vs. Arminianism... or any other "ism" .... Let the Bible speak for itself and forget about believe systems that have to be organized by mere men. If we have to read about Calvinism to understand the Bible, then we are not trusting in God's Word. We're trusting in man. Same thing for any other "ism".

Read God's Word and let the Holy Spirit be your teacher, just as Jesus said He would do. Where is our faith?


 2006/10/20 13:52

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


It DOES matter what people believe doctrinally

No doubt, and I am quick to uphold the importance of sound doctrine in this post-modern church age. (edit: I've always appreciated your commitment to maintain biblical doctrine Krispy K.)

However there is always the question as to how narrow we should dial our orthodoxy. If your'e B. McClaren you believe in a "generous orthodoxy"...too generous. Yet, I think he was reacting to some like those mentioned in this thread...small minded men whose orthodoxy is too stingy.

I don't think this thread is about the need for sound doctrine in churches...but about the need for sound examples in leadership. Some 'examples to the flock' seem unaware that church history testifies that truly great men of God, who demonstrated spiritual and doctrinal excellence, came from both Arminian and Calvinist traditions. In this light I think it is an extremley abberant position, contrary to many of the best examples in church history, for these pastors to denounce a 'calvinist' as being unworthy of fellowship.

We are free to teach scripture from an arminian or calvinist perspective in our local bodies, but it is not helping anyone to claim that the other camp is heresy. Consider what you would lose.

If we were to follow these pastors as worthy examples for the
rest of us...what would happen to the fellowship here at SI?

Which half of us should leave? Which speakers should Greg delete from his servers? If we were to follow these pastors example, then Paul Washer, AW Pink, Edwards, and Spurgeon, could not be downloaded along with Wesely, Finney, Ravenhill, and Wilkerson.

Like I said, it's a matter of how narrow we dial our orthodxy squelch...some dial it so tight that they tune out healthy parts of the body. In the case of the pastors mentioned at the top of this thread... they and their church are weaker for it.



Mike Compton

 2006/10/20 17:48Profile

Joined: 2006/3/9
Posts: 74


Yeah I agree. Sorry I haven't been on to respond to all this stuff. The problem with this situation is that it is almost a don't think for yourself thing. I'm fine with calvinsts or arminians as long as they seek God truly. I can't say that for people that preach complete heresy like antinomianism (as this church pretty much does) or other false doctrines. They are now reading a book for everyone in leadership is particular ministries that basically says just bashes calvinism completely, and this is really just indoctrination.

The main reason I do not want to leave is because my family would basically forsake me or something like that. But another big reason is because most of the people in the church are not saved, and I feel as though God may have placed me there to be a light to them.

I don't remember who said it but they said to go talk to the pastor. I could definatley not do this because for one I don't know him and he wouldn't listen anyways.
thanks again,

 2006/10/23 21:00Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


And you'd have to get past his bodyguards ;-)

patrick heaviside

 2006/10/23 22:07Profile

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