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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A Question for Calvinists

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 Re: Jay

you asked:

Quote:
If God reveals himself equally to all men/women, then how does anyone reject Christ?



to which I, for one say, "I don't know".

I never have fear of saying "I don't know", when the Wind of the Spirit starts to blow.

Its kind of like when Jesus was talking with Nicodemus in John 3 and tells him, ..."you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases, you hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where its going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit".

so.....where's the Wind blowing?


bartle

 2006/10/19 13:53
DesiJr
Member



Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re:

My brothers,

It is truly sad to see mankind align themselves so feverishly to mankind for the sake of being "RIGHT" and proving others "WRONG".

When will we discard all of our "ISMS" and replace our passion for man's intellect and nail it to the Cross?

Being a Calvanist or arguing against Calvanism is a waste of time. This is what the enemy revels in. And in particular my brother LOVEGRACE you adamantly rebuke those who subscribe to ISMS yet defend your Calvanist doctrine.

Lovegrace, you say this:

"...debating, and trying to figure out this C vs. A thing is meaningless. Christ didn't call ANYONE to debate doctrine like this..."

"So, my voice is spoken. Only because I'm tired of the Immaturity and the spirit of these discussions. On SI and in real life. They are UTTERLY MEANINGLESS."

Yet earlier in your letter you wrote:

"That's not Calvinism. That statement that is quoted above isn't Calvinism. I personally am a 4.5 Calvinist. I believe in most of their beliefs..."

When will the men of God rise up and discard the filthy garments of human intellect and truly offer themselves as a living sacrifice to be used by the complete and total sovereign God.

At the right time Christ died while we were enemies of the King of the Universe, so that we could have peace with Him and spend eternity with the One who could not spend eternity without us.... and let that be enough for us to serve Him. Not because what WE think or because what WE figured out.

Read the Word, Pray, Witness, dillegently seek Him, and His Righteousness (not man's clever doctrins) and God is just a faithful to reveal himself to us.

LET GOD BE ENOUGH....WE SHOULD BE OF ONE MIND AND OF ONE ACCORD.

God Forgive us for our immaturity, help us to grow spiritually, to grow more like your Son, who is the Glory of You the Father. Thank you for looking past our ignorance, help us in our shortcomings, we do repent, and want to erase walls and barriers that we have allowed men to build. You are the builder and creator. Forgive us God, and thank you for your mercy.

God Bless,
Desi, Jr.

 2006/10/19 16:13Profile









 Re: A Question to Calvinists

JaySaved asked

Quote:
How can people see God on the throne, see Jesus' sacrifice and not worship him? It is mind-boggling! Why can't they see what I see?

I can testify that revelation is required, before either person can believe. We don't know if a person 'hearing' the gospel, gets the same revelation as the person beside him hearing the same gospel. Two unique individuals may need to be challenged in very different ways by God.

For years (until the last15 months or so), I thought I was the only person who didn't 'see' what others could see. I thought I was always the last to 'know' and 'understand'...... But now, I realise I was just in [size=small][b]GROSS[/b][/size] darkness.

I'm still working on how to [i]reinterpret[/i] my past, but one thing is very clear to me..... that the connectedness I enjoy in my mind, is all God's doing. He has shined light on my 5000 piece jigsaw, sometimes shining it on only a part of a piece. It's been a looooong job, but He has patiently connected up the information I started with, to new information, and I think I'm beginning to 'get' it at last. I'm not joking. This is completely serious.....

I find it very hard to believe that people should be considered born rejects from God. That simply is not the nature of the God I've come to know.... that he would condemn babies, and give them such a raw deal in life that they'd hate Him from their earliest awareness of Him. But then, I've never hated God. It's always been clear to me that He was not responsible for the actions of 'people', including people claiming to know Him..... and so I've never held Him responsible for their mistakes.

Further, when it was pointed out to me that He had taken responsibility for their sins and mine, it seemed even less logical to turn away from Him...... So I think that when people keep choosing not to know God, they know what they are doing, even if they are really hazy about the meaning of the reality of how they are sowing to their eternal future.

I believe God takes them at their word, just as He takes the Christian at his word and answers his prayers, changes him from glory to glory and challenges him with new steps to walk in.

Am I making any sense?



 2006/10/19 16:26
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Dorcas said:

Quote:
I find it very hard to believe that people should be considered born rejects from God.



I understand completely. I do not like to think of this beause it makes me sad.

Quote:
That simply is not the nature of the God I've come to know.... that he would condemn babies, and give them such a raw deal in life that they'd hate Him from their earliest awareness of Him.



I have to stress that nowhere in the Bible does it say that God condemns babies in their state infant state. I find no biblical justification for that.
Also, concerning the hatred towards God, God doesn't have to give them a 'raw deal' for them to hate him. I offer these scriptures concerning the 'sinful nature/mind':

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:5
Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

Romans 8:6
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

Romans 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

So, we see that the unbeliever is in a state of hostility to God from the beginning and is a slave to sin. Therefore it is easy to see how an unbeliever can hate God.

Quote:
But then, I've never hated God. It's always been clear to me that He was not responsible for the actions of 'people', including people claiming to know Him..... and so I've never held Him responsible for their mistakes.



I will use Judas as an example of this.

Jesus knew all along that Judas would betray him (John 6:69-71, "We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)" because it was prophesied in scripture. See Acts 1:1-17, "In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— he was one of our number and shared in this ministry." (See also Psalm 109)

So we see that Judas was responsible for his actions, but his actions were prophesied and had to come about. God spoke of what Judas would do long before Judas was born...is that fair? Is it biblical?

 2006/10/19 17:44Profile









 "rejects from God"?

Psalm 51! The heart of the pentitent, quote it somebody!!!

"I was concieved in sin"......

Judas?....the one "doomed to destruction"....yet the cry, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do".

you're gonna be very suprised who you see in Heaven.

sorry for the brevity, and I have to go and make a dead king come back to life.....is it David?

yes, David!

a Gaelic David.....work work, its off to work we go........Bless God for a job.

bartle

 2006/10/19 18:53
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas

Quote:
I find it very hard to believe that people should be considered born rejects from God. That simply is not the nature of the God I've come to know.... that he would condemn babies, and give them such a raw deal in life that they'd hate Him from their earliest awareness of Him. But then, I've never hated God. It's always been clear to me that He was not responsible for the actions of 'people', including people claiming to know Him..... and so I've never held Him responsible for their mistakes.



you know Esau comes to mind because God hated him before he was born and could do anything. i would also ask then howcome babies die? it seems to me noone is exempt from death which speaks to the saturation of man with sin and the sin nature. i mean when adam sinned all creation was affected and terribly so even unto babies dying without having committed any sin...

you said you'e never hated God but i think we all have at some point because we were all once His enemies hence our conduct prior to salvation. i suppose not looking at how we acted before salvation as a reflection of a hatred of God is a consequence of how the nature of sin has touched every facet of creation...God is not responsible for our actions, we are hence His judgements. however if it were not for His own grace and mercy, there could be no salvation. bless God He did this before the settings of the foundations of the earth...


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/19 18:55Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

DesiJr wrote:
And in particular my brother LOVEGRACE you adamantly rebuke those who subscribe to ISMS yet defend your Calvanist doctrine.



Umm. I truly don't understand Calvinsim nor Arminism. But, I've been apart of those debates and the fruit has been evident each and EVERY time (I've witnessed about 20+).

God is soverign. Weither you father kills himself or you lose your job and all your savings and are on the street the next day or even if your daughter gets raped. GOD IS STILL ABSOLUTELY SOVERIGN. That's the only point I was really trying to make.

I'm a Christian and I should've defined myself that way. Not as a '4.5 Calvinist'.

I probly shouldn't have thrown out '4.5 Calvinist' cause really, I don't fully comprehend it, nor do I care to. The time that has been wasted (and I do mean wasted) in these debates, thousands upon thousands could actually start living for God if we used our time MORE productly or in a better way.

So, let's press on to more edifying things. Like, when was the last time you actually shared the gospel with someone or served someone or interceeded for your community.

This world should've been changed by now by all the KNOWLEDGE we have. But why isn't, cause there is NO feet to our faith. Let's act on what we know, instead of trying to aquire a better and more true doctrine. Let's move on what Christ said, LOVE GOD, OTHERS and FELLOW CHRISTIANS.

Everything else is secondary.

 2006/10/19 18:57Profile
DesiJr
Member



Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re:

LoveGrace,

God Bless you and the path that God has called you to walk. Continue firm in the faith and Christ will surely be glorified through our lives.

God Bless,
Desi, Jr.

 2006/10/19 19:26Profile
rometown
Member



Joined: 2006/1/30
Posts: 14
Lansing, MI

 Re: "rejects from God"?

Psalms 51:5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I think that the mother being in sin has nothing to do with this especially when you factor in Ezekiel 18:4-32. We need to be accountable for our own actions and not blame God, mother, father, priest, brother, John Calvin, or anyone and I mean ANYONE. For our walk is with God and he does charish and value it. The question is do we?

 2006/10/19 19:39Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: hating without cause

Hi Jaysaved, hope you are well.

I thought of Exodus 20:5 and Romans 1:18,25 in line with your last post also.

Peace be with you.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/10/19 20:13Profile





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