| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: A Question to Calvinists | | Quote:
If sinners could choose then why would God let them choose death if He doesn't want them to go to hell?
But that's just it..... sinners [i]can[/i] choose. Some choose life, and some choose death, and God accepts the outworking of the choices they have made.
By the way, I was not suggesting God is perverse. I was suggesting man is perverse for suggesting God does not force everyone to be saved.
Also by the way, I do realise He seeks out the lost and compels them to come in..... but, these are people who are willing to be compelled. I am sure there are those whose minds and hearts are set against Him. Now, I 'see' what it says in Romans, but Jesus invited people to exercise their wills [i]repeatedly[/i], and the concept of 'prepared for wrath', doesn't necessary mean [i]God[/i] prepared them.....
If you look earlier on to Romans 2, Paul ascribes the impenitent as treasuring up God's wrath to themselves (for His future outpouring) by their refusal to acknowledge His goodness in leading them towards repentance.....
Can you see what I mean? These are the vessels 'prepared' for 'wrath'.
Alternatively, there are the children of disobedience who don't turn to God in Ephesians, on whom the wrath of God will fall. And I know Eph 1 says we were chosen in the Beloved from the foundation of the world. I see this as a comment on the interface between time and eternity, rather than a comment on the inevitability of (the) [i]salvation[/i] of certain people.
Having said all that, in the Old Testament, there is a saint who asks for his name not to be blotted out of the book of life.... which may suggest that everyone's name starts out there (because of God's heart to save everyone) and people from each generation systematically deselect themselves from eternal life, through not receiving His grace to believe in Christ. |
|  2006/10/18 16:08 | | GraceAlone
Member
Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida
| | Re: | | I think you missed my point so let me recap...
Most people reject the doctrine of God's sovergnity because they are appalled at the idea that God is sovergn. Still, just think about the consequences of this rationalization. What if God was all-powerful and you called Him unfair for being all-powerful? This is a touchy subject that I believe is very crucial to viewing God. Gods sovergnly in control. The idea that we deserve grace is the heart of the issue... We don't deserve grace by any means. If God, by his good decree kept me from ever coming to faith I would have deserved it. Still, God choose me before the foundations of the earth and decreed that He would reveal Himself to little old undeserving me. Well... Why would God command something that we couldn't possibly do without His grace? Here's the answer: You are capable with His grace! Lazarus couldn't arise from the dead without God's help! By the way if God wanted everybody in heaven He is all-powerful and cound've done that. God chose in His secret decree for His glory to be shown in salvation and damnation: both done in accordance with justice and righteousness. This should move us to preaching the clear and true gospel for the elect to hear and come. If it was up to me to change everbody's heart then all would be going to hell. Only God can save by grace. This should keep us from trying to manipulate the gospel to bring forth professions. I want to bring forth true converts which can only be made by the power of God.
John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."
Acts 13:48
"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
Quote:
Also by the way, I do realise He seeks out the lost and compels them to come in..... but, these are people who are willing to be compelled.
The bible says that none seek after God and that nobody chooses Him but He chooses them. When the bible says you get a new heart it implies a new will given by God. God must sovergnly give you a new will for you to come to Him.
Quote:
Having said all that, in the Old Testament, there is a saint who asks for his name not to be blotted out of the book of life.... which may suggest that everyone's name starts out there (because of God's heart to save everyone) and people from each generation systematically deselect themselves from eternal life, through not receiving His grace to believe in Christ.
Where does it say that God intends to save everyone but is forced not to by thier will? I think the problem here is thinking that God is subject to man's will... God is not subject to us we are subject to him...
Revelation 13:8
"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Those who are not written in hte book of life have never been there. Those who have thier names written in the book of life have always been there before time began.
The word "chosen" shows up 23 times in the new testament and the word "elect" 24 times...(NKJV) Do you really think that God is subject to his own creation?
It might help to hear John MacArthur on the subject... [url=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=10/3/2006]Here[/url]
_________________
Kristy
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| | 2006/10/18 16:46 | Profile |
| | Re: A Question to Calvinists | | Quote:
I think the problem here is thinking that God is subject to man's will... God is not subject to us we are subject to him...
OK. Personally, I think the question I'm about to ask you is a mean one, but, how else do you explain the Cross?
We are only subject to Him in a reciprocal relationship of unconditional love. There is no other explanation of 'We love Him because He first loved us'.
The definition of love is that He laid down His life for us. That was an act of His sovreign will, sure, but, for why? Because He MADE HIMSELF SUBJECT to the penalty for our sin...... the sin ....... Adam CHOSE to sin. God did not stand at his elbow forcing his hand towards the forbidden fruit. This is where I (speaking for myself) see the whole Calvinism - Arminianism discussion as close to sophistry.
Scripture supports both the sovreigty of God .... after all, if His death was not sufficient and if He had not risen from the dead there is NO salvation...... and, man's part in creating a situation in which He ever needed to die at all.
It may not be obvious that I really [i]do[/i] believe in the sovreignty of God and that we are subject to Him, but I see that sovreigty as overarching the choices we make - whether for life through the obedience of faith, or for death which will ultimately be outworked through His [u]just wrath for disobedience[/u]. |
| | 2006/10/18 17:25 | | bluinos
Member
Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78
| | Re: | | GraceAlone:
You are correct we dont deserve this grace (unmerited favor) but we have this grace (unmerited favor) by what God all-powerful son did on the cross.
I hear your message on Grace and it still sounds to me like you have to work for it, and you dont have to. Once you have accepted his precious son in your heart as Lord and savior working out your own salvation you are saved, now if you choose to turn away from this salvation and grace (unmerited favor) then you do need assistance.
Lazarus couldnt arise from the dead with out Gods help --Larzarus remained dead several days as a testimony of God all-powerful.
Dorcas:
Having said all that, in the Old Testament, there is a saint who asks for his name not to be blotted out of the book of life.... which may suggest that everyone's name starts out there (because of God's heart to save everyone) and people from each generation systematically deselect themselves from eternal life, through not receiving His grace to believe in Christ
I have been holding this inside for too long. I hear what you are saying but I also believe that there is more, its not just believing in Christ and that your name is written in the book of life or that it started there
its about allowing him to change your life.
Too often we walk in fear of loosing our salvation and grace that we dont allow God to utilize his chisel and in essence we miss out on who we can or could be in his hands.
Dorcas:
by their refusal to acknowledge His goodness in leading them towards repentance.....
you also used the word time and eternity and this came to mind. If God all-powerful knew and he did that we would need a savior which would be his son, why did he wait as long as he did (time) so that we could have (eternity)?
GraceAlone,
In reference to your quote on your name being written the Lambs Book of Life, you must believe that once you made that great confession that indeed your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life, or else your confession is not valid.
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| | 2006/10/18 18:15 | Profile | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | hey sis Dorcas
Quote:
Isn't there a case for saying that God gives man a free will which is as sovereign within its remit, as God's is within His, and 'choose you this day whom you will serve' is a genuine question from God to man...... because God knows that unless a person's mind is convinced, the battle is lost? And He wants no puppets in His family..... only sons.
there is a valid case to me made as you have said in the above.like i said, i'm not so much worried about the mechanics, i feel our will is subject to God's and our perception of what free will is, is indeed warped since it is largely shaped (at least i think anyway) by the world before God draws us to Himself. anyhow our will and God's will irrespective of our views work together for the glory of God which is the bottom line. it seems contradictory in our minds but there is no such contradiction in God's.
whether you view it one way and i see it another sis, it seems plain to me we're vessels of mercy so it's all good and on the other side i'm sure all will be made plain for us both to His glory.
love you much sis
_________________
Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/10/18 20:19 | Profile |
| | So I guess I'm a Calvinist? | | JaySaved wrote: Quote:
The short version is that it is by God's grace that all men are saved through faith--and this faith is not of ourselves but is itself a gift from God. Salvation is not by works so that no man may boast that he has saved himself.
well then, I guess now I'm a a calvinist, but can I still be a follower of Jesus, too? |
| | 2006/10/18 23:49 | |
| | Re: A Question to Calvinists | | IRONMAN said
Quote:
i feel our will is subject to God's and our perception of what free will is
Hi Bro :-)
In a way, I agree, and there is a strange thing which happens as one seeks God, in that He calls upon us to choose His will.... It is at this point we discover the warp to which you refer - that we would tend towards our own will, often.
However, I have come to the place where I am no longer happy choosing my own way through life. I don't think the decisions I made in the past which had a very hard outcome through which to live, were necessarily 'my will' and not His, but, through the process of coming to terms with the decisions I thought I'd made with His blessing - nay, [i]guidance[/i] - I learned a huge amount about myself, and in the end, He had the opportunity to change me far more than if I'd found myself in a circumstance which gave Him [i]less[/i] opportunity to change me.
Iow, I think having a free will is something to do with making it my business to know what He wants me to do / be, and doing and being it. I do not think a Christian's will is 'free' in the way it was before one was seeking to be obedient to the Father... I hope that makes sense. But, it is still 'free' because I [i]choose[/i] to please Him because I know that will bring me peace in my relationship with Him. It is my way of showing that I love Him..... that I understand He took my needs seriously when He sent Jesus, and now I am literally eternally grateful.
Quote:
and God's will irrespective of our views work together for the glory of God which is the bottom line.
Amen. We have to trust this, when nothing looks like it on the outside.
Indeed. :-D |
| | 2006/10/19 6:49 | | mamaluk
Member
Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524
| | Re: | | Hi Ironman and Dorcas,
Forgive me of interrupting here a bit, should anyone be interested over this freewill issue,
aside from Scriptures, do consider to read "Bondage of the Will" by Luther. A tiny book, but a super super read. :)
thanks
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| | 2006/10/19 10:11 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: So I guess I'm a Calvinist? | | Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
The short version is that it is by God's grace that all men are saved through faith--and this faith is not of ourselves but is itself a gift from God. Salvation is not by works so that no man may boast that he has saved himself.
bartle wrote:
well then, I guess now I'm a a calvinist, but can I still be a follower of Jesus, too?
Sarcasam noted. ;)
My point is that sometimes when a person asks "Are you a Calvinist?" You have to say, 'What do you mean by Calvinist?' Because sometimes they have a completely off base definition in their head. I am a Calvinist, but I am a Calvinist because I am a follower of Christ who sees God working in the hearts of people to bring them to him.
A Calvinist takes Ephesians 2:8-9 literally in that the 'grace' comes from God and the 'faith' comes from God "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:".
We have discussed previously Phil 3:9. Remember when some bashed the new translations for changing the 'of to in'?
New International Version
Php 3:9, "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith."
The King James Version (Authorized)
Phil 3:9, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
So, is our faith that is not from ourselves as Eph 3 says the 'faith of Christ' or our 'faith in Christ'?
P.S. I am not saying that we don't exhibit faith. I am saying that our faith comes through the faith of Christ. |
| | 2006/10/19 12:11 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Dorcas wrote:
Quote:
Also by the way, I do realise He seeks out the lost and compels them to come in..... but, these are people who are willing to be compelled.
If God reveals himself equally to all men/women, then how does anyone reject Christ?
How can two people who are lost hear the same gospel message at the same time and one responds in faith and the other doesn't?
You said that those who respond are the ones who are willing to be compelled. What makes them 'willing' in the first place?
You and I are saved. We see the glorious sacrifice of what Jesus has done. We see the hand of God in this world and we have a desire to honor and glorify his name.
How can people see God on the throne, see Jesus' sacrifice and not worship him? It is mind-boggling! Why can't they see what I see?
Are they too dumb to see?
Are they not smart enough to know?
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| | 2006/10/19 12:20 | Profile |
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