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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug

Quote:
I appeal to all the brethren to take heed to this warning...
"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written is this book" (Rev 22:19).




you have quoted this scripture out of context. this is not to say that there will be no condemnation for those who twist scripture. however that scripture speaks specifically to the words written in the book of the revelation. consider this bro, at the time God gave John the revelation, the whole bible as we know it hadn't been compiled yet for that word which Christ spoke to John to be applied as you have applied it here.i know you quoted that from the KJV but if you'd paused and listened to what Holy SPirit had to say about that verse you would see that it is referring specifically to the Revelation. there is a blessing invoked at the beginning of the book to those who study it carefully. the only way (it seems to me) to get the blessing is to see what God has to say about it all because anything else is adding to or taking away. we should apply this same principle to the whole canon. Again this is not to say that there is no condemnation or consequence for those who do twist scripture.

you should also heed same warning as we all should.

this is one of many discussions on this topic which has come up and it seems to me that anyone who is pro KJV only and will not use any modern versions and one who will use modern versions vs the KJV will go round and round and not agree so why bother. the bottom line is this, it is of no consequence if you had the very same letters which Paul wrote or anyone else wrote if we don't have Holy Spirit to minister to us. what about that aspect of it brethren? is our God so small that He can't overcome those things which can't be translated completely from one language to the next because there are no equivelent words? is our God so small that the text that we must use is specifically derived from the R.T.?if this is so then we are not worshipping God as He is but an idol of our own making.

brethren untill i got into my first discussion about all this alexandrian T.R. text things, i had no clue that there were different families of texts. some of y'all may know greek, i don't nor do i feel led of God to learn it either. it seems to me God is not hindered by this at all. people have been saved by the KJV, RSV and the AOV (any other version) the key here is God's HOly Spirit who Himself will lead us into all truth. Brethren are we so hung up on the text familiy that we have forgotten this part? i mean without Holy Spirit what good does it do us?

my testimony about all this text stuff is this. i started out using a good news version and God ministered mightily to me through it. a friend of mine in 2001 got me an NIV study bible (bartle you have one) for a birthday gift and i have been ministered to greatly through it also. recently our Lord has had me read the KJV (specifically for scripture references when He has me post here so as not to stumble others)i've been ministered to mightily through the KJV too. honestly the bottom line is Holy Spirit inspired the writing of the bible so without Him none of it makes sense to anyone. i can say that some of the issues and concerns raised by some of you about certain things being diminished or added don't concern me because even though the translations read differently, God's HOly Spirit gets the message across with no problem (at least with me anyway) i think the KJV english is archaic, noone talks like that any more but by His grace i can understand it now. i still use all 3 and when i read each one i see no difference because by God's HOly SPirit i see beyond the text and into the truth of what God is trying to convey. We will be known by our fruits the word says, not which version we use. Paulwest said this and it is such a powerful nugget of truth...

Quote:
If we spent as much time living the Textus Receptus and Alexandrian manuscripts as we do defending and disecting them, we'd all be experiencing personal revival in our walks. The enemy loves when we debate Bible translations, and has a field day when a man studies the Greek manuscripts not to foundation his soul and be transformed by them, but to rather bolster his stance on a particular version's "authority." It's all so disheartening, and, like you've noticed, it occurs in these forums often.



only sis diane jumped in and acknowledged it for the truth it was...that's a prophetic word right there bro Paul. granted not everyone has gotten to read it yet but really that's a crucial thing. we can't just run our mouths, we have to walk the walk.

to me these are the issues

1) God's HOly Spirit somehow has gotten lost in the shuffle which is bad because He is the one who should be walking us through the word...i've seen much mention of the text and text famility in this discussion, not much of HOly Spirit illuminating the texts though :-?

2)whether we use a version from the alexandrian text or TR or Textus anythingus are we living as we ought to before God? that's what we'll have to answer for.

are we living these texts or goofing off?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/14 20:15Profile
Dougmore
Member



Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Hi Ironman,

Quote:
you have quoted this scripture out of context.



True I did. As did that guy who wrote Romans 14 and tried to apply it to this discussion. Perhaps our view points are different but I see all the Word as one just as God is one. So therefore I used this in that context.

May I ask you a question? Are you comfortable with half truths? This is for all the viewers not just you Ironman.

As for the NIV, it is based on three "different" texts that were compiled together to form one. Between the three there are over 50,000 errors. Not to great of a foundation.

We put our trust and faith into the Bible we read and I for one can't sit there and know in my heart that the bible I'm reading is not foundational. It has missing verses, other verses have been mixed around so as to convey a new meaning.

And for you brethren that say you can't understand the KJV, I understand to a point you situation and recommend a translation that is still not flawed. Check out the "Evidence Bible". To my knowledge it has a strong foundation and is complete.

The complete verse listing for the New Testament is as follows,

Matthew 17:21 Demons
Matthew 18:11 Christ's mission
Matthew 23:14 One of the "woes"

Mark 9:44 and 46 Hell
Mark 11:26 This is a big one, forgiveness. See context.
Mark 15:28 Deals with Christ deity

Luke 17:36 The rapture
Luke 23:17 Jewish custom

John 5:4 A miracle

Acts 8:37 Confession for Baptism
Acts 15:34 The ministry of Silas
Acts 24:7 Persecution
Acts 28:9 Miracles

Romans 16:24 Final greetings

Peace be with you, bro Doug

 2006/10/14 21:23Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Doug

Quote:
True I did. As did that guy who wrote Romans 14 and tried to apply it to this discussion. Perhaps our view points are different but I see all the Word as one just as God is one. So therefore I used this in that context.



but what part of if anyone adds to this book or takes from this book he will have added to him whatever punishment he's going to get or have removed a measure of his reward accordingly don't we get? have you not added to the meaning of that verse something which was not intended?

Quote:
May I ask you a question? Are you comfortable with half truths? This is for all the viewers not just you Ironman.



bro i am so glad you brought this up for discussion!!! no i am not comfortable with half truths which is why i seek God's Holy Spirit to minister to me according to the Father's will when i search the word because He does indeed lead us into ALL truth.

Quote:
As for the NIV, it is based on three "different" texts that were compiled together to form one. Between the three there are over 50,000 errors. Not to great of a foundation.



50000 errors based on the testimony of who?those who wrote what God had them write or based on a comparo with the T.R. assuming the T.R. is the real deal?what about the errors in the T.R. then? does anyone know how many of those there are? whatever errors there may be, God's Holy Spirit fills in whatever is left out and shaves off whatever was added in whether it was intentional or not. the preservation of the word of God dear brethren is not in the text as much as it is God's being the same yesterday,today and for always! i'm from zimbabwe africa and i'm not sure where the shona bible (i'm shona) is translated from in terms of text family but nontheless there are some words which simply can't be accurately translated into the shona. nonetheless God is not hindered by such.


Quote:
We put our trust and faith into the Bible we read and I for one can't sit there and know in my heart that the bible I'm reading is not foundational. It has missing verses, other verses have been mixed around so as to convey a new meaning.



should our Faith not be in God first? without Faith in God who inspired men to write, how can we have Faith in His word? for me when i read the different translations like i said, Holy Spirit trims off whatever has been added on in commentaries and such and adds in whatever has been left unsaid/untranslated so to me it makes no difference really. there was a discussion elsewhere about something else where this issue came up. it was said that one translation diminished the diety of Christ while the other didn't. i don't remember which version was which but i read them both and i saw no difference because HOly Spirit has made it plain to me Christ is God so no matter how that is expressed, that truth is concrete for me and i don't stumble.

the point i feel led to make here is this, if we yield to Holy Spirit and let Him teach us, we won't be piddling about debating this issue while souls go to hell and while we're not really living as we ought and we will see the Truth God is trying to convey IN SPITE OF whatever textual deficiencies there may be and not only that but we will live more like we ought and souls will be saved as men see the fruit of the Spirit in us.

well then again we may miss the point altogether or jump through every hoop imaginable to get anything but the point :cry:


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/10/14 22:27Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: I'm praising God for the Word!

Many thanks, Bro Doug for the clear and concise list of missing verses in the NIV. I checked over each of them in my Bible, and found most footnoted with a comment: The more reliable source omit this. But even if they hadn’t been footnoted, I am confident beyond a shadow of doubt that no particular point of our faith has been excised from the Word. All the bases are covered - amply, so to say.

What a relief! I am confident that no one has been tampering with the Word with evil intent, or even sloppy procedures.

Nothing is missing in my Bible! Halleluiah! I am all the more rejoicing in my Lord – that he is still zealously guarding his word to mankind. Oh, how he loves us so!!!

Doug, I hope that you can feel a relief too, and rejoice that these Bibles are sold in Coscos, or wherever, and that people are still buying them like hotcakes.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/10/14 22:34Profile
sonofthunder
Member



Joined: 2005/3/31
Posts: 419
Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re: Search the site, search your heart

Like i said, i never said you can't have, own, or read from another one of those "versions"...that is your call, no one can legislate !!

I recognize this, but should we choose to defend what we believe in, or hold to, and love...then conversely that is no excuse on anyone else's part to attack and defame ( and that on the personal level )

We are all members of each other and are Christ's body, failure to discern Christ's body then, can have implications and repurcussions.

Subtle barbs, slurs, innuendo ?? how is that justified or warranted...i include myself should i be guilty of such an thing. Now brethren if we discuss translation and that which i brought to the table, and with-out resorting or reducing it to the personal level ( then i have no objections to that of an opposing view ) Now that is surely a fair and reasonable call !

My conscience is very clear and clean, and why...because i haven't pointed the finger,NOR abused or insulted anyone in here, or whilst this thread has - BEEN IN CONTINUANCE.

Name-calling may make the person feel better about self, ( but that is all - it does )

It makes you feel better about SELF, BUT THIS IS A sign of (insecurity) that is if you FEEL THE NEED - to put ....A BROTHER DOWN - AND set him at ought.

I full well realize that those verses ( REV 22 ) of adding and removing - pertain primarily to that of thAT ONE BOOK, however 2nd Peter does warn if we wrest the scriptures, we do so to our destruction. ( Peter words not mine )

So if modern publishers decide to take out words and remove verses i.e matthew 17:21 then does not that equal and constitute - the wresting of SCRIPTURE ?.

Jesus is the word made flesh, all language and communication, and words,... originated by and from the heart of God....and not from MAN.

MAN CHANGES, but God's counsel remains immutable and unchangable ( we are the ones that change words )Their never happy though, always some excuse for a newer release version, being dis-contented and unhappy.

What came first then ? Jesus the word or this ~~ dictionaries ?, encyclopedia brittanicas ?, greek septuagints , latin, Aramaic - or even the english language ? ALL words proceed from God friend, and he watches over his word to perform it, heaven and earth will pass away, before one jot or one tittle - will fall to the ground (being empty or not fulfilled ) He watches over his word with a greater jealousy than me, the apostles, the prophegts before us, and to meddle is a Huge risk of monumental proportion

Better if i s.o.f were never born than for him to wrest scripture or to invent to himself a watered down or compromising alternative.

But that is my conscience, my fear of God, and conviction - no way ho say,do i touch the holy scriptures or interfere with them !

Besides on this and touching further the spirit itself bears witness to our spirits what is true, and distinguishes between truth and the spirit of error, And we have no need annyman teach us, but the anointing with-in teaches us all...things

Meaning what we read will bear witness to our spirits, that we have and hold the truth,and wether translation has and is been - giving accurate and true representation, to original tongues and manuscript.

The Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth, will guide you ( me ) into truth....not error, but truth.

And He cannot lie, nor oppose himself, and if he lives in us, he will give you a witness, and a "ckeck" in your spirit.

I personally do not therefore get a good witness to those editions of scripture - that add own opinion to meaning, that take out verses at will, that add own words, that fail to make significant distinctions as the O.P has thus far pointed out.

Noteworthy is this ~ the word "wrest" from 2nd Peter chapter three ....means: distort into accordance with one's interest 0r Views, to altar somethings meaning or to change by twisting.

It is manifestly evident what Jesus thinks of those who subtract or add to - in relation to his word hence the warning in revelation chap 22.

But alas some man would say ahh this refers only to the one book "revelation" ( ohh )

Think again ( Duet 4:2 ) says Moses commanded not a single lick, scrap or shred- nay not "one word" be ....diminished or added... ( when admonishing God's people )
thereto !

And Repeated in Duet12:32

Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is PURE:

V6 " ADD THOU NOT ~~ UNTO HIS WORDS, LEST HE REPROVE THEE, AND YOU BE FOUND A LIAR.

Still many say ohh but it is in italics or paranthesis - so all is cosher, no one is tampering with nothing ....still if it cast very much doubt upon the reader as to, wether it truly belongs, lending dispersions, and bringing dark billowing clouds of uncertainty....then how is that a good thing to be doing ?

For instance brethren take your revised versions

You open them up to matthew 17:21

This is what you will see ~~ verses( 20 & 22 )locked together like so ( but no verse 21 )

Is it then in italics at the bottom of your page ?well it use to be - however some new revisions have omitted and deleted it, ALTOGETHER

WHY DO THAT ~~ WHY ???

Is it because they know "themselves" it belongeth not in the cannon of books ??

If they think then - to take it upon themselves to delete it totally as they now do, is it seen as an error in printing ( from them ) - or do it they ~~~ because - they now believe matthew 17:21 should ....[GO]and doesn't fit ??

Well there was no error from the king James translators at all, because we find in Mark's's gospel the same verse ( repeated ) Mark 9:24

God often does this bearing witness- by repetition

This often catches the thie out,f who comes to take and SNATCH, AND the hirelings who care not for the sheep ( often they trip up themselves )

GET CAUGHT OUT - BIG TIME ..MMMMM UH HUH

As ALSO with the two accounts of John baptist asking for confirmation again, as to wether Jesus was Christ ( when in prison ) from matthew 11

But over in Luke's account we understand why John doubted and wavered, over Christ.( and more information, is THEN ... furnished to the reader )

Jesus told the pharisee and scribe they kept erring, due to not knowing the following things
A) the scriptures
and
B) the power of God
:-o


_________________
Bro Stephen

 2006/10/19 4:46Profile





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