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 Re:

I'll be happy to, John.

BTW, what I say is intended to excerise the thinking process. There must be a dictionary around just in case of a word or two that needs defining. I have to use one..alot. Words mean something and when I learn them, new vistas open up to my understanding.

In another thread the word "lost" has become an issue. Does it mean "damned" or just plain, "lost"? Check out the dictionary.

Is a sinner damned when lost or just needs to be found that he can change direction? I say it depends or whether or not he is a reprobate or one who could be sincerely tender towards God if the preacher was anointed of God.

However,

#1. Put yourself in the crowd both as a rebel/reprobate and then as seeker [elect] of something from someone's life that will satisfy the longing within you. Is that so difficult to grasp? Surely the crowd in the street will be a mix? Now, using Paul's presentation and anointing, and not some novice off the wall "hellfire and brimstone" catarwallorin, how well do you think it would be received? Are percentages our business in this?

Thanks for your words I"ll try to tone it down.


8-)

 2006/10/4 10:25









 Re:

Thank you for your patient response.
I can only speak for myself on this question not for other street preachers.

The crowd to me will always be a mix.Therefore I follow the leading of the Holy Ghost and what the Lord has taught me so far. I preach the "whole counsel of God",and The "goodness and severity of the Lord." So Lord willing it will touch all of the "mix". Then sometimes a person interupts with a question. Sometimes I will answer it emmediatly, other times I have said. I will answer your question just let me finish this point.Though imperfect I strive to treat them with respect. Most of them have good reasonable questions that deserve an honest answer.

Your first point/question of damned or just needing to be found. The first of many scriptures that comes to mind is John 3:36 the wrath of God abides upon them. So they are dammed unless they repent and are born again or saved. I could just as easily start my witnessing/preaching with John 3:16 as I could with a classic, "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

Another dynamic that happens is the rotating crowd. Some would say well if your crowd is rotating then your not annointed to hold them. Well maybe so. However when I have had the rotating crowd or walking by crowd I will cycle through the whole counsel of God. Sin rightousnes and judgement, repentence faith and the cross. Now if you were to come up and here me preaching in the middle you may think hey this brother needs to preach the cross not repentence. Well everything in it's time.
Lord bless, John

 2006/10/4 11:31
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

My trip to Gerogia has been delayed so I can resume.

let me re-cap--you started out by implication in the book of Eph. where paul is speaking to saints [qoute] "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus



you than asked a question
Quote:
how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?

the answer is simple---all. Now in a street context Paul wouldn't have made that statement,i.e.>>Mars hill sermon where he reasoned with them, two different senerios entirely.

Quote:
The assumption in His words to us has to be that to whom He sends us, are redeemed. I.e., peace with God has been made by the Blood of Jesus...... and they need realize it, right?

that is just out and out foolishness. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: I could go on but its pointless, you don't believe. I have that from the Lord.

to which u responded kinda off the wall. Your original comment was that we were to somehow enlighten those to whom we were sent as to thier sonship, my comment was simply this, God not man, does the work and those to whom God has touched doesn't really need us to tell them that they have been born of His Spirit, They'll know, John the Apostle said Little children...etc... if you just read the little children portions it is very insightful to the newbirth experience.

The whole meatless teeaching and presumption comments I'm going to avoid because it's heading toward the flesh on both of our parts.

Quote:
And what faith is that since Jesus Christ is not yet come in whom to place it?

thier faith looked forward to the messiah to come, our looks back to the messiah already come. The Cross and Ressurection is the center piece for all of mankind --eternity past , present and future.

Now this statement you made pretaining your "yak" friend reminds me of the theologians I run into on the streets, they take an obscure 1 in a million example, take it to its extremes either right or left(liberal or conservative) and base an arguement on that. The news media does the same. I like what God says: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Most people will do as you do-- they base thier interpetation of scripture on Paul's writtings, it's always best to start with the foundation (God's very Words spoken by very God-Jesus Christ)and work up from there. Now as to your YAK friend? I'm not a judge, God is soveriegn, btw have your ever read the book called, "Eternity in thier Hearts"? Very insightful, it tells how God and the redemption story was heard by remote people groups and when missionaries arrived these tribes--people groups had already heard and had some knowledge. God is not only love---which means he conditions everything He does with Love, He is also JUST. there's only one door into heaven, his name is Jesus. It will be found in time and eternity that God Loved those who died and went to hell every bit as much as those who lived and went to heaven.

Quote:
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.”John 10:16 (NASB-

who s voice did the other sheep hear? To say that they came to God any other way but by Jesus Christ is just out and out error. OT or NT there is no other way, now thier understanding may not be as complete but, one plan, one way, one entrance into the presence of God, that's why even in the OT tabernacle there was only one entrance to the holy of holies, and even at that the tabernacle lays out to form a cross(the furniture). We all come to God by way of the cross. I could go but I think you get the point.
Quote:
My Yak friend was greatly affected by the night sky

Thats a cute touchy feely example but it has no bearing on the reality of how God works in the conscience of man who's seeking to know what his/her geniune purpose in life is. Something to ponder :

Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

God is soveriegn, Jesus the Author and Finisher of our Faith....


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/10/5 23:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dohzman wrote:
My trip to Gerogia has been delayed so I can resume.

let me re-cap--you started out by implication in the book of Eph. where Paul is speaking to saints
Quote:
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus



Quote:
you than asked a question:

how many do you suppose would still be in your presence?



Quote:
the answer is simple---all. Now in a street context Paul wouldn't have made that statement, i.e.>>Mars hill sermon where he reasoned with them, two different scenarios entirely.



In Ephesians, Paul is writing to those AFTER the fact. On Mars Hill, he is seeking to invite, “to become”. Obviously he succeeded inasmuch as some responded.
So what was his message on Mars Hill that cannot be replicated today by disposition; intimacy with God for correct understanding His intent of the new birth experience? Certainly it goes beyond salvation by the Blood of Jesus into a deeper realm of knowledge/relationship?

Quote:
The assumption in His words to us has to be that to whom He sends us, are redeemed. I.e., peace with God has been made by the Blood of Jesus...... and they need realize it, right?

that is just out and out foolishness. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: I could go on but its pointless, you don't believe. I have that from the Lord.



Quote:
to which u responded kinda off the wall. Your original comment was that we were to somehow enlighten those to whom we were sent as to their sonship,………….



Intended son-ship .....and the foreknowledge of God.

Peace with God has been made, by the “Blood of the Lamb”, on their behalf and intended son-ship needs to be explained. How else will they know except a Preacher, worth his salt, explain it? Does not this message take it to the conclusion Christ intends it to be taken? If as we say, we have nothing to do with our salvation: Jesus did it all, then believe it! He did do it all and those who have in faith God will receive that message with gladness, the wicked , in the mix, won’t. The believers of/in God will hopefully, if explained properly, come to have His Life indwell them and come to know and follow Him unto son-ship.

Jesus said, “Make disciples” ……. NOT go and get people saved.


Quote:
……..my comment was simply this, God not man, does the work and those to whom God has touched doesn't really need us to tell them that they have been born of His Spirit, They'll know, John the Apostle said Little children...etc... if you just read the little children portions it is very insightful to the newbirth experience.



Yes……and? Where have I violated John, in your estimation? However, you are saying one must be born again to be saved. I believe the Bible teaches that contextually however it is alluding to overcoming and not salvation as you suppose.

Quote:
And what faith is that since Jesus Christ is not yet come in whom to place it?



Quote:
their faith looked forward to the messiah to come, our looks back to the messiah already come. The Cross and Resurrection is the center piece for all of mankind --eternity past , present and future.



Tell that to those with faith in God who have had no Preacher to explain it. Is their faith misplaced? Are they damned? Does not the Blood of Jesus cleanse them of Adam’s sin stain? [b]“Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains”[/b]. John 9:41 (KJV)

Quote:
Now this statement you made pertaining your "yak" friend reminds me of the theologians I run into on the streets, they take an obscure 1 in a million example, take it to its extremes either right or left(liberal or conservative) and base an argument on that. The news media does the same. I like what God says: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.



Your scripture presumes on my Yak friends knowledge or rather lack of it, concerning Christ. Does his lack damn him? You need to read “Bruchco”; the biography of missionary Bruce Olsen to the Montalone Indians in SA. It will open the eyes of anyone concerned with this topic of conversation.

Quote:
Most people will do as you do-- they base their interpretation of scripture on Paul's writings, it's always best to start with the foundation (God's very Words spoken by very God-Jesus Christ)and work up from there.



Now you are presuming on me. You must show me my violations.

Quote:
Now as to your YAK friend? I'm not a judge, God is sovereign,



Why of course. Why didn’t I think of that? God does read the hearts of men, doesn’t He?

Quote:
btw have your ever read the book called, "Eternity in thier Hearts"? Very insightful, it tells how God and the redemption story was heard by remote people groups and when missionaries arrived these tribes--people groups had already heard and had some knowledge.



What have I been trying to get across to you??…………….. “Bruchco”

Quote:
God is not only love---which means he conditions everything He does with Love, He is also JUST. there's only one door into heaven, his name is Jesus.



[b]“ Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for [EVERYONES, regardless] sins.”[/b] 1 John 4:10 (KJV)

*[ ] emphasis mine

There! That takes care of my Yak Shepherd friend! Now if only he had had a Preacher to bring him into the born again experience, who knows who else in Siberia, would have been influenced by him for Christ?

Quote:
It will be found in time and eternity that God Loved those who died and went to hell every bit as much as those who lived and went to heaven.



Indeed, except for Esau, eh?

Quote:
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” John 10:16 (NASB-)



Quote:
whose voice did the other sheep hear? To say that they came to God any other way but by Jesus Christ is just out and out error



Who are the other sheep??

And, you have already answered that for yourself, above. Do you adhere to the thinking that those who recognize God and live by convictions that testify to their revelation of Him, are damned unless they know of Jesus? However, [b]”In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”[/b] John 1:4-5 (KJV)

Quote:
OT or NT there is no other way, now their understanding may not be as complete but, one plan, one way, one entrance into the presence of God, that's why even in the OT tabernacle there was only one entrance to the holy of holies, and even at that the tabernacle lays out to form a cross (the furniture). We all come to God by way of the cross. I could go but I think you get the point.



No. We come by having faith in God. Now if you wish to explain Christ to me as the reason I have faith in God then explain why and for what reason. Here let me help:“No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44 (KJV)

Quote:
My Yak friend was greatly affected by the night sky



Quote:
'Thats a cute touchy feely example but it has no bearing on the reality of how God works in the conscience of man'



I beg your pardon? In light of the above scripture?

Quote:
'who's seeking to know what his/her genuine purpose in life is. Something to ponder'



Only if a Preacher explains it. Know any who can? And I don’t mean Rick Warren.

Quote:
Job 33:14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
Job 33:16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
Job 33:17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

God is sovereign, Jesus the Author and Finisher of our Faith....



There’s that word “sovereign”, again.


#1. Job doesn’t begin to fit what we are into here.

#2. RE: God’s sovereignty. If you believe Jesus is the only way then God’s sovereignty can’t fit into that which you wish me to believe.
8-)

 2006/10/6 6:39
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
1. Job doesn’t begin to fit what we are into here

why not? He certianly does fit the example of your yak friend, he predates abraham or was a close comtempory to abraham. That's about as far removed from the gospel story as one can get either side of the cross and here we see salvation, the voice of God, atonement, God has placed eternity in the hearts of all humanity.

I somewhat understand some of your objections and comments but I have to respectfully disagree. Jesus was perfect balance, think about it, God in the flesh walking amoung humanity, everytime He stepped out He instantly knew who would recieve Him and who wouldn't, yet He never usurped thier free will and choice. But in His Godhead He Understood the End from the begining. He's God we are not. From our prospective here on earth we go to lost and dieing humanity, God sees all His works as finished from the foundations of the world. But we are not God. Salvation is a Hebrew understanding of God and is a continious and repeated action, the "born again experience", is a point in time indeed.

Jesus said : Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The main point is than this. Paul in Ephesians was addressing the church. Probably through an oral reading of his letter, he being absent, at several house churches scattered throughout that great city/region. Marshill was an open forum and he probably had more than one oppurtunity to speak there.
Here's where you and I part ways, you say that before he even opens his mouth to speak there are saved individuals there who have never heard and just need further instruction or better knowledge? I don't, at least not amoung those who are hearing the gospel for the first time.


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/10/6 9:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The main point is than this. Paul in Ephesians was addressing the church. Probably through an oral reading of his letter, he being absent, at several house churches scattered throughout that great city/region. Marshill was an open forum and he probably had more than one oppurtunity to speak there.
Here's where you and I part ways, you say that before he even opens his mouth to speak there are saved individuals there who have never heard and just need further instruction or better knowledge? I don't, at least not amoung those who are hearing the gospel for the first time.



Though what you falsely attribute to me as my understanding, let me clarify. "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and [b]instruction.[/b]" 2 Tim. 4:2 (NASB-U)

And I stand by that.

You come on the scene and presumptuously believe you are doing the planting and with some you may well be. However, within the mix may well be those who only need to be watered. Think about it.

8-)

 2006/10/6 15:02
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

tell me what is the difference between planting and watering?


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/10/6 18:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dohzman wrote:
tell me what is the difference between planting and watering?



One happens before the other. 8-)

So are you the one or the other? --- or is that something we need determine when we preach?

 2006/10/6 19:11
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I beleive the context was over those who were being saved (bragging right ya know- who gets the credit or notch on thier belt) and gathered into the church, or body of believers, Paul was simply saying that it doesn't matter who did what but it was God who gave the increase. That's all. You can read more into it but I love simplicity, I'll stick with the text. :-)


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/10/6 20:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dohzman wrote:
I beleive the context was over those who were being saved (bragging right ya know- who gets the credit or notch on thier belt) and gathered into the church, or body of believers, Paul was simply saying that it doesn't matter who did what but it was God who gave the increase. That's all. You can read more into it but I love simplicity, I'll stick with the text. :-)



That's good. I like sticking to the the text. Better, I like understanding it. i.e., one [whoever that may be] plants. The other, [whoever that may be] waters. Few ever come to repentance until they come ready to repent. And you think you are going to do it in one sitting? What kind of repentance would that be except the stirring of one's emotions. These are the one's who re-dedicate their lives every Sunday when what they need is a true revelation of Jesus. That's where you and I are supposed to come into play. Today we have rock bands and Mr.Dialogue from the corporate world who are invited in to aid in the planting and watering. The increase here is also predictable both of quantity and quality.

:-(

 2006/10/7 6:46





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