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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: slavery

Brothers, I found an article at wallbuilders.com that I'd like to recommend to you on the issue of slavery and America's history. The article takes a look at what the scriptures say about slavery and also has alot of qoutes and facts of history from the founders.

I think the article will be usefull in giving us all a clearer perspective on this.


The article is [i]The Bible, Slavery, and America's Founders[/i] by by Stephen McDowell

It's available under [i]Issues and Articles[/i].

I was surprised to learn for instance, that according to this article

Quote:
[b]Many of the founders started and served in anti-slavery societies[/b].



I don't remember hearing anything like that before.

Christopher


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/9/24 1:03Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

KJ wrote:

Quote:
Also, a thought: Why does Christ gain by displaying the Ten Commandments at a court house? Remember, we are not under the Old Covenant, but under a New Covenant.



A question for you Jimmy: what happens when references to God are striken from the public square? from the market place? are not allowed to be mentioned?

Another question for you Jimmy: since when are Christian people free to violate the commandments of stealing, coveting, chasity, honoring God? etc.?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/9/29 10:16Profile









 Re:

KJ,
For the law is a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ.They who are still under the old covenant. The law helps them to see more fully their sin. Also Thy law is perfect converting the soul!You'll find that in proverbs.
Also the Law is etched in the supreme court building, moses with the two tablets. On and on I could go. Watch the dvd it will greatly help.
God bless, John

 2006/9/29 10:36
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

Yesterday when I read this thread, it made me ponder a lot..even kept me awake last night! I sensed that both John and Ironman had valid points. But can there be a marriage of the two?

There is one point that has not been mentioned and I would like to share this for your consideration.

What is the value of symbols? What do they to us? Are they to please God? Are they to help us?

Consider: the first symbol we read about in the Bible is the lamb that God slew to cover Adam & Eve's sin.(You all understand this, do you not? I do not have to go into detail why it was merely a shadow of things to come?) Later the symbol or ritual of circumcision was given as a token of God's covenant with Abraham. In the law there were others: like the fringe on the hem of a person's robe; or the tabernacle itself:its structure and rituals. Fast forward to the NT: you have baptism, the communion ritual, the washing of feet, annointing with oil, the veiling of the woman's head when praying or prophecing, men lifting holy hands....

Now look at all these rituals: did they have redemptive value? Did observing these rituals ever make a man/woman holy before God? Why did God ask his people to observe them? Is it not because we are finite beings who need steady reminders of our limitations and that we serve an infinite being? Is not the act of our willingness to observe these rituals a demonstration to God - and the spirit world - that we are willing to be obedient to Him even in things that make little or no sense to us?

Now about the symbols of Christianity in the public square: does it not edyify us all to see these displayed?

Persecution: It is true the church has thrived under some persecution. Intense persecution has obliterated Christianity from some parts of the globe. Persecution is hard on a body, physically, spiritually, and mentally. Paul tells us we need to pray for our governments so we can lead a quiet and peaceful life. Jesus tells us in his prayer "Lead us not into temptation." If you are a parent who would have his children removed from the home because of your faith, how easy would that be? It has happened in the past and will likely happen again. Anabaptist history records an incident in which a child was given to an approved family after its parents were martyred and neither it or any of its descendents never did embrace Anabaptism.

These are my thoughts on this issue and just thought I would share them for your consideration. I stand to be corrected if I am in error.

ginnyrose

PS: John, perhaps someday I will take the time to checkout the video you mentioned...many times I have problems viewing something like that online.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/9/29 14:57Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

A question for you Jimmy: what happens when references to God are striken from the public square? from the market place? are not allowed to be mentioned?



Actually, I don't know. But what bothers me is that Christians are being more proactive about forcing the court system to back up public displays of their faith, than simply displaying their faith in their day to day activities and conversations.

However, the striking of references to God from the public square is merely the symptom of a deeper problem. That being that we live in a society living in darkness, whose ultimate loyalty is to the god of this age.

We can talk nonsense about this country being founded upon Christian principles and what not, and we can talk nonsense about this having been a Christian nation, and we can fight carnal battles against flesh and blood by trying to setup monuments of the Ten Commandments in courthouses.

But the truth of the matter is this country was by in large (there are some exceptions) actually founded by greedy men whose greed went so far as to make God a tool and justification for rebelling against England. And once the God of deism was no longer needed to justify this rebellion, this God was forsaken.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/9/29 16:25Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

For the law is a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ.They who are still under the old covenant. The law helps them to see more fully their sin. Also Thy law is perfect converting the soul!You'll find that in proverbs.
Also the Law is etched in the supreme court building, moses with the two tablets. On and on I could go. Watch the dvd it will greatly help.



And all I can say is so?


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/9/29 16:26Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: faith of our fathers

Hi everyone.

KingJimmy, these last few lines here are some pretty strong statements to make. I think we should be carefull about this... you wrote

Quote:
But the truth of the matter is this country was by in large (there are some exceptions) actually founded by greedy men whose greed went so far as to make God a tool and justification for rebelling against England. And once the God of deism was no longer needed to justify this rebellion, this God was forsaken.



Brother, are you sure this was the case?

As concerning greed, didn't those who led the revolution risk a great deal, including thier lives and the lives of their families?


As concerning the claim of deisim, I found this qoute about the [b]55[/b] delegates at the constitutional convention


[b][color=999900]The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--[u]this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith[/u].[/color][/b]

the article goes on to say

[b][color=999900]This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. [u]Indeed, 70% were Calvinists[/u] (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity. [/color][/b]

The full article is here

[url=http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5243]The Faith of our Fathers[/url]

One observation here: I don't see how anyone could reconcile being a calvinist and a deist at the same time?

Brother these are some strong words about the founders. I copied a list of the names of the men who were a part of the constitutional convention and am posting them here. I think it may be helpfull for us to remember that these were real men, with real histories and lives. I think too, especially in the case of those who could have been true brethren, that it would be pleasing in the sight of God to treat their memory with respect.

[url=http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/FoundingFathers/index.shtml]Constitution Center.org[/url]


[b]Connecticut[/b]
Oliver Ellsworth
William Samuel Johnson
Roger Sherman

[b]Delaware[/b]
Richard Bassett
Gunning Bedford Jr.
Jacob Broom
John Dickinson
George Read

[b]Georgia[/b]
Abraham Baldwin
William Few
William Houstoun
William Leigh Pierce

[b]Maryland[/b]
Daniel Carroll
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer
Luther Martin
James McHenry
John Francis Mercer

[b]Massachusetts[/b]
Elbridge Gerry
Nathaniel Gorham
Rufus King
Caleb Strong

[b]Virginia[/b]
John Blair
James Madison
George Mason
James McClurg
Edmund Randolph
George Washington
George Wythe

[b]New Hampshire[/b]
Nicholas Gilman
John Langdon

[b]New Jersey[/b]
David Brearley
Jonathan Dayton
William Churchill Houston
William Livingston
William Paterson

[b]New York[/b]
Alexander Hamilton
John Lansing Jr.
Robert Yates

[b]North Carolina[/b]
William Blount
William Richardson Davie
Alexander Martin
Richard Dobbs Spaight Sr.
Hugh Williamson

[b]South Carolina[/b]
Pierce Butler
Charles Pinckney
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
John Rutledge

[b]Pennsylvania[/b]
George Clymer
Thomas Fitzsimons
Benjamin Franklin
Jared Ingersoll
Thomas Mifflin
Gouverneur Morris
Robert Morris
James Wilson

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/9/29 22:01Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis ginnyrose
i guess my feeling is that unless there is an expression of God in our lives there is no point in putting up any symbol because it then becomes hypocracy.

i pray that God manifest Himself in our own lives in an undeniable way to His glory. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/9/29 22:27Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
what bothers me is that Christians are being more proactive about forcing the court system to back up public displays of their faith, than simply displaying their faith in their day to day activities and conversations



Why must we assume there is a disparity between those who want to see the Ten Commandments displayed and respected publicly, and those who live it privately and quietly. Perhaps Judge Moore is not the political hypocrite, but the honest believer. It seems to me that the people, like this judge, who are willing to take public heat for their beliefs, are just the type of people who do indeed practice privately what they preach…or rule.

Quote:
the striking of references to God from the public square is merely the symptom of a deeper problem.



If this is true then inversely a Judge who is defending a reference to God in the public square is evidence of a deeper solution. :-)

Seriously, King Jimmy and Ironman, aren't you talking out of both sides of your mouths bros? On one hand you criticize public displays of the Ten Commandments, yet on the other hand you preach Godliness... It seems to me that the two could be wings on the same healthy bird. If we are asking for inward adherence to righteousness (Whether it is measured by the Ten Commandments, or by Christ-likeness), then we should not be surprised when this inward reality interacts outwardly with the world.... including the government!

Or perhaps we are not completely free of the influence of Gnosticism... ;-)

It’s not that publicly affirming the Ten Commandments will cause mankind to uphold them privately. It’s that upholding them privately might just lead to publicly affirming them before mankind.

Why must we mistrust that?

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/9/29 23:16Profile









 Re:

"king" jimmy, You are responding out of pride and ignorance. Now if that offends you think about you sayng that I and others are talking "NONSENSE". Thats very insulting don't you think? How does it feel now?


I will say that you had one thing right...when you said, "Actually I don't know".

You are "botherd" that christians don't diplay their faith in their day to day activities. Well lets use Roy Moore as an example. Do you "know" his daily life? or do you know he dos'net display his faith? Also are you maybe missing the fact that the stand Moore and many took is a legitamate part of how they disply the truthfullness of their faith? Lastly remember what I posted elswhere the Judge over moore declared that it really wasn't about the display but rather whether the state can "acknowledge God" and his answer was NO! There's your deeper problem. God bless, John

 2006/9/30 5:07





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