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Discussion Forum : General Topics : school grades plummet after prayer removed.

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 Re:

Important reminder to all. Morales plummeted as well not just grades!

I have the book back in the states. I have emailed wallbuilders to see if it is still in print and if the author still agree's with the data he collected. God bless, John

 2006/9/16 6:48
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Free to follow Christ

Quote:
Morales plummeted as well not just grades!


This sounds like ancient Israel, does it not? It shouldn't be surprising that history is repeating itself. After all, human nature has never changed.

This is the way I see it:

Trying to make everybody Christian-like, and make Christian-like rules for our society seems to have worked for a long time. We thought we were on track, and we were proud. However, we were not on track. We were living a form of third-century Christianity. And we couldn't see the fall-out for a long time - maybe two generations, maybe more. I don't know.

Putting the 10 commanments on the wall, having religious ceremonies (ex prayer) making stiffer laws, putting "JUST SAY NO" billboards up, having special programs may help a tiny bit, but in the long run, the slide will continue. None of that can change the core nature of man.

As for the solution: I believe that the same ancient solution would apply today as was promised by the ancient prophets. It is not about changing form or practise, but accepting God's solution: God himself changing the heart of man.


It is for each of us personally to accept God's radical calling to us. That's the best way we can touch our fallen world - change within ourselves.

I don't want to sound like I know it all. I admit God took years to get though my thick skull that I do not need my society to be more Christian-like in order to follow my Lord obediently.
Quote:
Ultimately, faith and all that pertains to faith is quite individual,



I can pray whenever I wish to - not when the school, church or whoever says to do it. And so can everybody else. Not even the most oppressive government can stop that.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/9/16 8:04Profile









 Re:

Do you forget that God rains on the unrighteous as well as the righteous? Also these were children, can he not answer them to show his faithfulness to them?

 2006/9/16 8:30
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: thoughts on prayer

Quote:
Do you forget that God rains on the unrighteous as well as the righteous? Also these were children, can he not answer them to show his faithfulness to them?



What are you implying? (Sorry, I’m slow) I don’t think you are implying that reciting a Christian prayer from an unbelieving heart is more righteous than saying no prayer at all - although God could use it to bring conviction.

What makes me very sad is when non-believers are leading in faith-based exercises. Their cynical attitudes show through, and kids know it. They get the idea that this “mythological stuff is not real”, or has no power. I wonder if it’s safer that teachers don’t touch something sacred than when they handle it and destroy it.

I remember back when we were still reciting the prayer in highschool. The far stronger message of the day was humanistic: God is dead. It was never said in words, of course, but I could “smell it” all over the place.

I guess you could say the same thing about our religious practises in churches – lots of forms of godliness without its power. It’ all such a deadly inoculation against the real thing.

I suspect that in atheistic countries like China and Russia, more authentic prayer rises up to God than in countries that are trying to preserve some remnant of Christian-like culture.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/9/16 9:17Profile









 Re:

O.k I just got a reply from wallbuilders on the availabilty of this book. It is out of print however they said you can buy it on amazon.com
Also they consider the research in it to still be very reliable.
God bless, John

 2006/10/21 0:53
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Something against the grain here...

I find the 'anti-earthly' kingdom crowd are leading me in circles. Obviously it is always right to remember that God's kingdom is not a government institution with a national flag. True enough, but some Christians seem all to eager to see all influences of past Christianity on our present civilization removed. Their premise is that 'cultural Christianity obscures true Christianity and therefore confuses the masses. Some zealously desire to be that Christian living in a completely faith-hostile culture such as is found in a communist or Islamic state. The logic is that diamonds sparkle best aginst the blackness..and false diamonds will have their hypocrasy persecuted out of them.

This sentiment for authentic Christianty is understandable. In America there is an astonishing array of appallingly deformed expressions of the Gospel: gaudy money loving faith preachers on television, shallow yuppy religous love songs on the radio, spineless post-modern churches seeking cultural friendship, and liberal textually-critical divinity schools/seminaries trying to rewrite scripture line by line.

As an American watching too many Yankee Christians cultivate zealous vitriol towards any type of established Christian culture, I fear we are embracing a naive and romantic attitude about the 'glory' of removing Christian influences on culture and even state persecution. Culture is unavoidable to the Christian like ocean is unavoidable to a fish. Christians nodes are connected to the array. Even the Amish, who practice cultural isolation and avoidance, have left a most profund mark on this nation. So connection to culture is not even in question...the question is will this be a connection of submission or dominance in relation to other cultural influences.

Inspite of my desire to impress you with my other-worldy spirituality...for my children's sake I prefer a culture where Christianity is the dominant influence. I only wish that this influence be achieved through authentic transformation of hearts, and renewal of minds...not simply through political hijacking. I sincerely believe that, although early church fathers endured persecution and anti-Christian governments, they did not desire these things like some restless Americans seem to express. I don't believe Ceasar represented 'anti-Christ' simply because he was the head of state...I believe Ceasar represented anti-Christ because he lived as an anti-Christ practicing anti-Christianity. I think this obvious point is lost on some of us who seem to think any Christian bloke who influences earthly civilization is somehow worldly and no longer heavenly.

Perhaps my difficulty is simply a lack of imagination on my part. It may be that, inspite of disgust for parts of my own culture I have not seen a suitable alternative, at least from the hand of man. I look around the world and I see the options...Islamic global conquering of faith, European atrophy of faith, the persistant communist militant opression of faith...even when I look back in history, from jungle tribalism to imperial monarchs, I remain pursuaded that a Christian iteration of culture, whether in the form of jungle tribalism or imperial monarchy, while often far from perfect, is on the whole preferable. It feels selfish to not want to influence my own culture for the benefit of my children.

Here I insert the urgent disclaimer that there is much to repent for in this present civilization. I treasure and appreciate the message of repentance for this nation as expressed by many excellent contemporary preachers. Yet, there are two things to recognize awhen we ask a civilization to repent: one, that we must believe there is an entity called 'civilization' and two, that this entity is capable of repentence. Consider that by simply caring about our culture and civilization, you no longer can claim that all cultural Christianity is wrong...by even thinking to ask a nation to repent you have become the nucleus of the next generation of cultural Christianity. The only way for your personal relationship with Christ to not have a cultural manifestation is for you to hide your lamp under a bushel.

I am a part of the culture I live in...my influence, however small, in unavoidable. We may be seated in heavenly places, but we are still living in earthly places. So, try as hard as I might to find agreement with all of the posters here at SI, I can not reach a place of contempt for Cultural Christianity held by some, inspite of my watchful mistrust of it. To paraphrase GK Chesterfield..."A civilization with Christian influence is the most corrupt kind of civilization there is---except for all those other kinds without it."

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/10/21 11:20Profile









 enid

you wrote:

Quote:
The schools have eroded and so has the nation



and

Quote:
That's all the schools are, satan's boot camps



do you really believe that?


I agree with what you wrote here:

Quote:
As we all know, the prayer meeting, if there is one, is the least attended meeting in the church.



but that other stuff, do you REALLY believe that?

and I'll tell why I ask you that....no offense, but thats what the taliban was trying to do in Afghanistan...the koran was taught and that was it.

The taliban also took RPGS and blew away two 200 foot ancient statues of buddha that had been carved out of a cliff face centuries ago, the Bamian buddha's...just forgetting the spiritual aspects of these works, this was art.

I must confess, that when I hear that "schools are satan's boot camps", this mindset causes me no end of grief, because there are millions of dedicated teachers out there laboring HARD to educate our children, two of my sisters as such, dedicated, underpaid and hardworking, and I think by your utterances, you do them disservice.

respectfully, bartle

 2006/10/21 14:09
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: I am silenced

Compton, your thoughts bring balance to my somewhat boxed-in perceptions:

Quote:
I fear we are embracing a naive and romantic attitude about the 'glory' of removing Christian influences on culture

Perhaps this is a reaction to our dissolution over hypocritical Christianity. We swing too far to the other direction. Yes, you are right. In fact, these days I’m involved in the preparation for an upcoming Christmas concert of entirely sacred choral music, and I suspect that few of the 60 choristers know the Lord. But, praise God, the message is being preserved through culture, and is being kept alive! Who can tell how and when the words will speak.

Quote:
Consider that by simply caring about our culture and civilization, you no longer can claim that all cultural Christianity is wrong..


I guess, I’d have to indict myself if I made that claim.

Quote:
.by even thinking to ask a nation to repent you have become the nucleus of the next generation of cultural Christianity.


...then one simply becomes part of the very thing he abhores.

Quote:
I remain persuaded that a Christian iteration of culture, whether in the form of jungle tribalism or imperial monarchy, while often far from perfect, is on the whole preferable.

"A civilization with Christian influence is the most corrupt kind of civilization there is---except for all those other kinds without it."


I am silenced...

edit: (not quite)

I guess we don't want to be like the zealous reformers who slashed art work, and got rid of anything they feared could become an idol. A lot of that magnificent work might have been appreciated as a reminder of God's glory on mankind.

.. and then there is the remnant of social morality that is carried over from Christian roots..

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/10/21 14:46Profile
mamalluk
Member



Joined: 2006/10/21
Posts: 18


 Re: enid

Quote:
That's all the schools are, satan's boot camps



Enid, yeah, looking back, this was not the most edifying words to the readers, nor really fair. :)

As in the world, God's remnants are everywhere. I was very impressed by a few Godly teachers out there who helped my kids along in the early years.

I do understand the well intention that came with the post though.

mamaluk

 2006/10/21 14:52Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Amen, Compton! You said it very well!

One thing he said and bears repeating: if you remove religion - and in this case Christianity- from the previling culture, it leaves a vacuum and something else will fill it! That is why you have the rise of new age humanism, the occult, etc. To suggest this Christianity as lived by the school's administration is ideal/perfect is not what is even remotely suggested.

Would y'all rather our government be like some are in which parents are not allowed to educate their children as they deem fit? This will happen once all vestiges of Christianity are removed from the public square. It is happening and may well soon happen here unless something radical happens. Check out this site:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40332 This type of thing does not happen overnight: it is gradual, like the removing of any semblance of Christianity or its practices from public institutions. After they have succeeded in this, the churches will be next. It is already happening...or are we like the proverbial frog who unknowingly is being boiled to death, and does not know it?

Another point to consider: since the school teachers may not be walking with God and their acts are only superficial, at best, would you all suggest the children not go through the form of prayer until they have consciencely accepted Jesus as their Saviour?

Another point: to suggest that the teaching of morals and expecting the non-christian to adhere to them as being useless, is faulty at best. Do you not know that for every sin you did not commit while away from God will mean there is one less sin to repent of? Sin enslaves, always. If you have never indulged in certain sins it will mean one less bondage to deal with once you come to the LORD. My preacher-grandfather used to say how he would give his right arm to not have committed some sins before he came to the LORD!
(EDIT: I removed a sentence which I later thought might be to combative.)

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/10/21 15:17Profile





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