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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
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 Re:

qoute:
For some reason God spares sinners in order to give them plenty time to repent. Each day is a merciful gift. After all,"He is not willing that any should perish".

The point: God’s mercy is a precious gift, not to be assumed. What an awesome God we have!

Am I on the same wave-length as you, Christian?



as im reading this..i get tears in my eyes...WHAT A GOD WE HAVE!!!
that is a truth not to often declared.... i must do that more often... MY GOD IS SO GREAT WE DONT EVEN HAVE WORDS TO BEGIN TO DESCRIBE HIM.... but you get a preaty god one in the bible :)

its like i could spend one eternity speaking of his mercy...then probably one more of his awsomeness... and yes it was that passage...
and yes that is what they want.. i sin to ..every day to be honest...but im begining to hate it! i dont want it.... i for very long felt very bad about it... but now i see im blessed :) blessed are those who thirst after rightuessnes :)

for they shall be filled!!

no wonder people will say christians are crasy :) i want to die...so i can be free from sin :) and go be whit him... when one think about thease things...it seeems so much..so imcredible.. one day i will be like him...

ohh god thank you... i pray my life will give glory to your holy name, thank you holy lord jesus...

christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/9/15 13:04Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: The beauty of God's mercy

Quote:
its like i could spend one eternity speaking of his mercy ..



Christian, this is my prayer for you: that God’s mercy will be sufficient for you – today and every day here after - on this side of eternity.

"Mercy triumphs over judgment.” James 2:13

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
In his great mercy he has given us new birth
into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

and into an inheritance that can never perish,
spoil
or fade
kept in heaven for you,
who through faith are shielded by God's power
until the coming of the salvation
that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice,
though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

These have come so that your faith—
of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—
may be proved genuine
and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Though you have not seen him, you love him;
and even though you do not see him now,
you believe in him
and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 1 Pet. 1:3

For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness
and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins." Eph. 1:7

[b][size=large][color=CC0000](!)[/color][/size][/b]

Diane


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Diane

 2006/9/15 13:44Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 because God said so

brethren
prophecy itself is not necessarily the fortelling of future events. prophecy is communicaing the heart of God. if you look at the wiritngs of the prophets, the vast majority of it is communicating what God is feeling and much less of it has to do with foretelling the future. So prophecy is communicating the Heart of God.

bro Logic said:

Quote:
Just like the Election of the saints; He knows that we will choose or not choose and then elect those who will according to what He knows we will do.



the problem with this assertation is that the focus shifts every so subtly from God to man. God doesn't elect based on what we will do, that would be salvation based on some sort of work! and we know that we are saved by grace. the election of the saints has absolutely nothing to do with anything you or i could ever do or not do, it is based on God's own sovereign decision.

let us look at Romans chapter 9 and consider what God has said through Paul:

[b]0 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder F35 shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/b]

the election of God works like this in this and all instances: God didn't hate Esau because Esau would reject or sell off his inheritence, the word says that God chose between the 2 BEFORE they were born so that nobody could say that His election was based on works. it is the same with our own election. who among us can say that they have done anything to deserve being called of God? how then can we conclude that God chooses us based on what He sees we will do in future? how is that different from salvation based on works? predestination as it should be understood is the working of God's mercy on whom He'll have mercy and the pouring out of His wrath on whomever He chooses.

also let us consider what Christ said in John chapt 6

[b]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

if God the Father draws men to Christ and then Christ draws them to the Father, that says to me everything rests Entirely on God. Of course some would think this unfair but nay, who are we to talk back to God? shall the pot say to the potter, "why have you made me like this?"

they will not choose God because unless He chooses them first, nothing will happen. it all hinges on the Father and His own will. Now there are some of God's elect who even unto this day are atheists or in some other false faith which we have to reach out to. We are called to be vessels of mercy and there are those who are vessels of wrath also and God has already decided. Does this mean we ought to sit back? of course not! it should actually spur us on to seek God all the more because He has called us to Himself!

so why preach to those who won't hear? Because God says so. do we need any more reason from the Master of all? God told Jeremiah in chapt 7:



[b]5 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: 26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. 27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: F34 truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.[/b]

God told Jeremiah go and tell these people what i told you but they will not listen. of course one would ask "what's the point?" the simple answer is this, because God said so. also on the last day, nobody will be able to say "i didn't get the memo"


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/15 14:05Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Diane

you said:

Quote:
It is never my choice that God dispense mercy on me. That’s up to him. But to think that I passively enter the kingdom or not without the exercise of my choice would be a horrible way to live. I was taught that kind of stuff when I was a kid – and believe me – it’s rotten doctrine. It leaves you feeling so helpless and strips you of personal responsibility. Also, you do a lot of judging. . ex: “Oh, Mr. Hothead, he’s going to hell for sure…” . “I know God can’t possibly love me enough…”, or ‘I’m so good, I know I must be one of his elect.” etc



the last bit about judging shows me that people have missed the point about predestination, it's not according to what we do, it rests on the grace and Mercy of God. Of course this doesn't mean that we should sit on our behinds but we really ought to seek God that much more because we are under His Mercy.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/15 14:13Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re:

ahh that sums it up :)

its all of his mercy, i know i never did or ever could do anything to deserve it...its just gods soverign choise, and of course we should obey what he commands us to do...


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CHRISTIAN

 2006/9/15 14:26Profile
Logic
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Posts: 1791


 Re: because God said so

IRONMAN wrote:

Quote:
bro Logic said:
Quote:
Just like the Election of the saints; He knows that we will choose or not choose and then elect those who will according to what He knows we will do.

the problem with this assertation is that the focus shifts every so subtly from God to man. God doesn't elect based on what we will do, that would be salvation based on some sort of work!


How false of a statment can this be?
Obediance and faith are not works, for that is what must be done in order to be saved!

Why is anything that has mans part in it called work?
Is prayer work?
Is preaching work?
Is worship work?
These are all based on what we do and will do.

Your are saying that GOD save us even if we don't obay to choose.

[b]"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."[/b]

do you not know that this is talking about nations and not persons?
Quote:
so why preach to those who won't hear? Because God says so. do we need any more reason from the Master of all? God told Jeremiah in chapt 7:


This would be fiutile, God is not a God of fiutility.
God is only telling Jeremiah what HE knows they will do, not saying that HE is making them disobediant.

 2006/9/15 14:48Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
the last bit about judging shows me that people have missed the point about predestination, it's not according to what we do, it rests on the grace and Mercy of God.



Ironman, I’ve been in a hypercalvinism atmosphere, and I can say from personal experience that a false assurance in God’s predestination is really no assurance at all. Even as a kid I wondered why no one had the peaceful assurance that aught to accompany true regeneration. I could see the obsession with works, rules, religiosity, (Hey! Why would you need all that stuff if you are predestined anyway?) In actual fact, the people were NOT depending on God’s sovereign election but on their works. No one CAN depend on their election apart from divine impartation – ie, unless it is real.

Quote:
Of course this doesn't mean that we should sit on our behinds.

Apart from Christ nobody feels so secure that they sit on their behinds – at least for long. Apart from God, everyone strives in some way or another. They live by rules of some sort, and when their world gets shaky, they try to make more rules - personal or collective. In fact, our entire world system is obsessed with legalistic lawmaking.

Example: We just had a gunning in Montreal, and the response from a teacher was that we should have more gun controls (more rules, less freedoms). Canada just spent billions on trying to implement gun controls, and failed miserably. The farmers were mad because they lost some freedoms. They wanted to keep on shooting groundhogs with out having to suddenly take a gun course and pay for a licence. In the recent shooting the murderer had owned guns that have been illegal for years. In fact, he was an illegal immigrant! So, how on earth are stiffer gun controls going to prevent the next shooting! Only the honest ones register anyway.

Church seems to operate the same way. Every time something goes wrong another rule is added in order to prevent that the offence from ever happening again. So you have huge policy manuals. And it doesn’t seem to matter what doctrinal position a church holds. The further away people are from Christ, the more they depend on rules.

(by the way, I'm not against rules - you need them because the fact it, not everyone is regenerated)

To me, apart from Christ, everyone lives by the same doctrine: law (self) without grace (God). They depend on something outside of themselves. Law-dependent people never learn to think for themselves, or to make responsible choices. They never grow up, and so you have a lot of imature people around.It just gets worse because rules paralyze the mind and the will.

Yet people keep on scrambling for more laws to control the fallout of immaturity. But it never works. It's like pushing a square bolder up a hill. It keeps slipping downward, no matter how hard you push. What a wretched bondage. You eventually wear out and the bolder rolls right over you.

It is the path of death, and there is no way out until God intervenes .... That's where divine election is GOOD NEWS indeed.


Diane


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Diane

 2006/9/15 15:02Profile
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 Re: confused

i found this article... it has some to do whit this subject


Man's Will - Free Yet Bound

Walter Chantry



For more than fifteen hundred years the Church has engaged in a heated debate over the freedom of man's will. The major issues came to general attention in the early fifth century when Augustine and Pelagius did battle on the subject. Through medieval times the nature of man's freedom received a great deal of attention. As they studied the Scriptures, Bernard and Anselm made significant contributions to the doctrine of the human will. In the sixteenth century the freedom or bondage of the will was one of the chief issues dividing Reformers and Roman Catholics. To the mind of Martin Luther, it was the key to his dispute with Rome. In the seventeenth century the nature of man's freedom was at the heart of the debate between Arminians and Calvinists. The conflict surfaced again in the eighteenth century during the Great Awakening. Finney's approach to revival in the nineteenth century led the church astray through a misunderstanding of the human will. So too the nature of man's will continues to bring intense disagreement between Reformed and Fundamentalist believers.

A proper understanding of the content of the gospel and the use of GOD-honouring methods in evangelism are dependent on one's grasp of this issue.

Some theologians, both Arminian and Calvinistic, have been quite lucid in their discussions concerning man's will. Others, for example, Jonathan Edwards, have soared into the lofty clouds of philosophy where many a believer faints in the thin air of difficult logic and complex thought. But none is so refreshingly clear as our holy LORD. His instruction on the subject is laced with vivid illustrations to assist our groping minds:

Matthew 12.33-37 says, 'Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.'

In this passage are three verbal windows through which the light of Christ's lesson passes. Each presents a familiar scene. (1) A tree that has fruit - v. 33. (2) A man who brings treasures out of a chest - v. 35. (3) A stream that overflows from a fountain. This last is rather more obscure than the first two, but it is suggested by our LORD's choice of words in v. 34. The word 'abundance' suggests superfluity or overflow.

I. Man has a will and that will has a certain freedom. Our LORD clearly teaches that man has a power of choice. It is important to begin here to disarm opponents of all the foolish accusations that have been brought against the Biblical doctrine of man's will. Every man has the ability to choose his own words, to decide what his actions will be. We have a faculty of self-determination in the sense that we select our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires.

No one ties fruit on a tree's branches, not even GOD. The tree bears its own fruit. Evil men sin voluntarily; they take evil treasures out of their chests, that is, evil words and deeds. Righteous men are holy by choice; they select good treasures, that is, good words and works. The person who is speaking and acting is completely responsible for his moral behaviour. This power of the will is a vital part of human personality. It always exists in you and me and in all to whom we witness or preach.

GOD never forces men to act against their wills. By workings of outward providence or of inward grace, the LORD may change men's minds, but He will not coerce a human being into thoughts, words or actions. When GOD in His holy wrath sent the Israelites to drive the Canaanites from their land, He also sent hornets against them. There is a children's song which tells the story of these hornets stinging the Canaanites, causing the pagans to flee the land. The chorus then sings:

GOD never compels us to go, Oh no,
He never compels us to go;
GOD does not compel us to go 'gainst our will,
but He just makes us willing to go.

When Saul was converted, the LORD did not compel him to edify the church instead of persecuting it. He added a new factor of inward grace in his soul, consequently Paul changed his decision. GOD may renew the will but He never coerces it.

The Westminster Confession is very careful to assert the liberty of the human will. When it speaks of GOD's eternal decrees, we are told, 'GOD from all eternity did . . . freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is GOD the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.' When discussing Free Will, the Confession begins, 'GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.' Neither by creation nor by subsequent acts of GOD are man's decisions made for him; he is free to choose for himself.

This sort of freedom of the will is essential to responsibility! Having a will is a necessary ingredient to being morally accountable. This is clearly implied in our LORD's words in verses 36 and 37: 'I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.' A man can be condemned only because the words are his own. He was free to bring them out of his treasure chest. They were the overflow of the fountain of his own heart. They are the fruits of his own tree of nature. No one imposed the words on his lips. He chose them. Society, companions, parents cannot be blamed. Idle words are the product of the man's own will.

It is vital for every minister to appreciate the importance of man's will. For in evangelism the will must be addressed. In preaching the gospel we are not only to shine the light of truth upon darkened minds. We are also to appeal to men's perverted wills to choose Christ. Faith is as much an act of the will as it is of the mind. When by the Spirit a mind understands essential truths, by the same Spirit the will must trust Christ. Repentance is a selecting of good and a refusing of evil. Volition is central to faith and repentance.

Indeed, in conversion, a man must make a decision. We shy away from that term because in modern jargon a 'decision' has come to be identified with an outward expression, such as raising the hand or going forward to the front. While such external acts have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins, the heart must make a decision to be saved.

When Christ stood to cry 'If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink,' He was soliciting a willing choice of Himself as satisfying drink for the soul. GOD urges all sinners to come just because they may come. And it is our duty to inform the sinner that he has a warrant, a right to choose Christ. Beyond this, we must assure him that he has a positive duty to embrace the Saviour.

The great guilt of sinners under the gospel is that they will not come. Christ complained in John

5.40: 'Ye will not come to me that ye might have life.' And to Jerusalem He sobbed, 'O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not !' There is in the unregenerate hearer of the gospel an obstinate, wilful choice not to come. Hence it is that in flaming fire Christ will come to take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel [2 Thess 1.8]. In the free exercise of their uncoerced wills men have rejected the Son of GOD.

In speaking of responsibility we have implied nothing regarding ability, as will be seen below. But the point is that men have wills which must be addressed as powerfully and directly as their minds and emotions in gospel preaching. Men must be confronted with their responsibility. 'This is the work of GOD, that ye believe into Him whom He hath sent' [John 6.29].

II. Man's Will is not a Sovereign Faculty. Although man does have a will, it is neither independent of all influences nor supreme over all other parts of his personality. This is the next point to be seen in our LORD's teaching.

Pelagians, Roman Catholics, Arminians and Finneyites have all held one common view of the nature of man. They suggest that the will of man is in some way neutral, that it exists in a state of moral suspension. It is their understanding that with equal ease the will can choose good or evil; it can receive or reject Christ. With only degrees of difference and variety of explanation, this is their common opinion. Pelagians have taught that the will is neutral because man's heart is morally neutral. Arminians, on the other hand, acknowledge the human heart to be evil. But they suggest that prevenient grace has hung the will upon a 'sky hook' of neutrality from which it can swing either to receive or to reject the gospel. The common ground, however, is this idea of neutrality. The will, they tell us, is disinterested. Ultimately this controls their entire view of conversion and of sanctification.

It will be noted that our Master taught that the human will is not free from the other faculties of the heart. Far from the will reigning over a man, the will is determined by the man's own character. It is not raised to a position of dominance over the entire man.

Man is like a tree. His heart, not his will alone, is the root. There is no possible way by which the will can choose to produce fruit contrary to the character of the root. If the root is bad, the tree is bound by its very nature to produce evil fruit. Man is like a person standing alongside his treasure chest. There is no possibility of bringing pure gold out of a box filled only with rusty steel. The contents of the heart determine what words and deeds may be brought out. Far from being neutral, the will must reach into the heart for its choices. Every thought, word and deed will partake of the nature of the treasure within. Man is like a stream which cannot rise above its source. If the fountain is polluted, the outflow will be evil. If the source be sweet, the stream will not be bitter and cannot choose to be so.

These three illustrations alike contain the same lesson. What a man is determines what he chooses. Choices of the will always reveal the character of the heart, because the heart determines the choices. Men are not sinners because they choose to sin; they choose to sin because they are sinners. If this were not so, we could never know a tree by its fruits, nor could we judge a man's character by his acts.

In modern times we observe rockets fired so that they escape from the earth's gravity. To accomplish this there is a great complex of electrical wires all woven into one control centre, called in the U.S. 'Mission Control.'

According to the Bible, the heart is the Mission Control of a man's life. The heart is the motivational complex of a man, the basic disposition, the entire bent of character, the moral inclination. The mind, emotions, desires, and will are all wires which we observe; none is independent but all are welded into a common circuit. If mission control is wired for evil, the will cannot make the rockets of life travel on the path of righteousness. The will cannot escape the direction of thoughts, feelings, longings and habits to produce behaviour of an opposite moral quality. 'Will' may be the button which launches the spacecraft. But the launching button does not determine the direction. Direction is dependent upon the complex wiring system.

If the will were able to make decisions contrary to reason, and to the likes and desires of the heart, it would be a monster. You would find yourself in a restaurant ordering all the foods you detest. You would find yourself selecting the company you loathe. But the will is not a monster. It cannot choose without consulting your intelligence, reflecting your feelings, and taking account of your desires. You are free to be yourself. The will cannot transform you into someone else.

This is most profoundly true in the moral and religious realms. When the mind is at war with GOD, denying His truth; when the emotions hate Christ His Son; when the desires wish GOD's law and gospel were exterminated from the earth; the will cannot be in a position to choose Christ. If it were, a man would not be truly free to be himself. Here is the tragic truth about man's will. While free from outward coercion, it is in a state of bondage. It is not in a stated neutrality. It is not a lever with which to move a man's personality from sin to righteousness, from unbelief to faith. This brings us to the third element in Christ's words.

III. Man's Will is in Bondage to Sin. The chains which bind a man's will to sin do not result from the actions of the Omnipotent GOD. The binding chains are the man's own depraved faculties. The prison is his own nature.

Our LORD's rhetorical question in verse 34 brings this home with force: 'O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things ?' Our wise LORD is suggesting that a man must speak as he does because of what he is. To sinners He was saying 'You are unable to choose good words because you possess an evil heart. If the tree is bad, if the treasure chest is filled with evil things alone, if the fountain is bitter, your will cannot produce good words [fruits, treasures, overflow].'

At this point there are very many scriptures which attest to a man's bondage to sin by his own nature. To mention but a few - Jeremiah 13.23: 'Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil;' John 6.44: 'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him;' Romans 8.7: 'The carnal mind . . . is not subject to the law of GOD, neither indeed can be.'

Pelagian, Arminian and modern Fundamentalist support for the moral and spiritual freedom of the will usually centres on one point. We have admitted that man has a responsible freedom. He is free to be himself. He is held accountable for his words and deeds, especially for his receiving or rejecting Christ. On all of this we agree. They use this toehold to argue that the will is not in bondage to sin but has the power of contrary choice. It can do either good or evil, at least when confronted with the gospel. They insist that the responsibility of the will to choose Christ implies ability of the will to choose Christ.

There is no scriptural defence of this belief, none that I have ever seen in print. The argument is completely philosophical. It runs as follows: If a man cannot do good, it would be unjust to punish him as evil. Furthermore, if a sinner cannot repent, it would be foolish to command all men everywhere to repent. GOD is not foolish and He has commanded repentance. Therefore men are able to repent.

We can only reply that those who applaud the powers of the will with such arguments have not read the Bible very carefully. To maintain their philosophical premises they will have to argue with Christ their LORD. For our Prophet tells us in verses 36 and 37 of our text that in the day of judgment men will be held responsible for their evil words. Yet in verse 34 our Teacher tells the very same men that they cannot speak good words because they are bound by their evil character.

Lazarus in his tomb had no ability to respond when our LORD commanded, 'Come forth.' The man who had been impotent for 38 years had no native ability to obey when Jesus commanded him to take up his bed and walk. Nor have modern sinners ability to believe when we preach. 'This is his commandment, that we believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ' [I John 3.23].

When a sinner refuses to come to Christ, he is guilty because he has made a free choice. It reflects his own state of mind, feeling and attitude toward GOD and His Son. He has acted voluntarily without coercion. It is his decision. But the poor sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, could not do otherwise, being evil. It is not necessary for him to have a neutral will, or the ability to do both good and evil, for his action to be held accountable before the Judge of all hearts.

Anselm is very helpful on this matter. This medieval theologian points out that if ability to sin is necessary to true liberty or responsibility, then GOD is neither free nor praiseworthy. For the scriptures teach us that GOD cannot lie. Similarly, saints in glory will be neither free nor responsible; for in eternity the LORD's people have confirmed righteousness. Anselm goes on to show the Biblical emphasis of freedom. True liberty rests in the ability to do good whereas he that does sin is the slave of sin. If true liberty rests in the ability to do good in GOD's sight, then the highest liberty rests in the inability to do otherwise. This highest freedom belongs to the sons of GOD in glory. How Biblical were Anselm's insights!

No doubt Anselm's thinking has influenced the Westminster Confession's wording in the chapter 'Of Free Will.' For it says that Adam 'had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and wellpleasing to GOD.' Yet this freedom was mutable, subject to change. Man could and did lose his liberty in the sense of being able to do good. This is not the same as a man's liberty to be himself. 'Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or prepare himself thereto.'

Bernard was very near the truth when he wrote of our condition in Adam: 'The soul, in some strange and evil way, is held under this kind of voluntary, yet sadly free necessity, both bond and free; bond in respect of necessity, free in respect of will: and what is still more strange, and still more miserable, it is guilty because free, and enslaved because guilty, and therefore enslaved because free.'

We have seen that man is free to be himself and therefore is enslaved to sin by a wicked heart. And this brings us to the most profound truth regarding the salvation of souls. It is crucial to our preaching. It is vital to saving impressions in our hearers.

IV. Man's Will is not his Hope. Our LORD has taught that the tree must be made good. Man must be renewed in his entire character. He must have a new heart to bring forth good fruit; the will cannot make the tree good; it may only exercise liberty to be what the tree already is. The will cannot reload the treasure chest with a new kind of goods; it may only freely bring forth what is there. The will cannot cleanse the fountainhead; it may overflow only with the waters available in the soul.

Any gospel preaching that relies upon an act of the human will for the conversion of sinners has missed the mark. Any sinner who supposes that his will has the strength to do any good accompanying salvation is greatly deluded and far from the kingdom. We are cast back upon the regenerating work of the Spirit of the living GOD to make the tree good. Unless GOD does something in the sinner, unless GOD creates a clean heart and renews a right spirit within man, there is no hope of a saving change.

While we address the wills of men in gospel preaching, they are wills bound in the grave clothes of an evil heart. But as we speak, and the LORD owns His word, sinners are quickened to life by divine power. His people are made willing in the day of His power [Psa 110.3]. All who are adopted as sons of GOD were 'born not of the will of man, but of GOD.' [John 1. 13] We stand to preach with no power to make the tree good. The 'trees' before us cannot make themselves good, so no gimmicks or policies of men can persuade them to make the change. But our glorious GOD, by inward, secret, transforming power, can make the tree good, the treasures good, the fountain good. Thus all glory be to GOD and to the Lamb! Salvation is of the LORD!



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CHRISTIAN

 2006/9/15 15:04Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Logic

Quote:
How false of a statment can this be?
Obediance and faith are not works, for that is what must be done in order to be saved!



the thing is obedience and faith are attained [i][b]because[/b][/i]we are saved. i'll concede we have some measure of obedience and faith before we are saved but it is not sufficient for God's loft purposes which is why we must put on Christ in ALL things because only through Him can all things be done.

and man does have a work to do for God. The prayers, preaching and so on must be unctioned by God because anything that stems from self is not acceptable before God.

Quote:
Your are saying that GOD save us even if we don't obay to choose



no actually i'm saying we are saved by God and obey Him because we are called by Him. Once He has called us there is no going back. again this means we have that much more responsibility to seek Him because He has called us to Himself.

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do you not know that this is talking about nations and not persons?



but what are nations made up of though bro if not people? did Edom not come forth from Esau? Did Israel not come from Jacob?

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This would be fiutile, God is not a God of fiutility.



indeed, He is not a God of futility, but does your definition of what futility is match His? but even though the attempt to warn His people appears futile to you because nobody listened, He sent Jeremiah out there anyway.

Quote:
God is only telling Jeremiah what HE knows they will do, not saying that HE is making them disobediant.



if God can harden the heart of Pharaoh...whether it be by letting the enemy in or whatever means, then that lets me know He is in control...i prefer it that way!then there is Romans 9 15-18

[b]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [/b]

then vs 22
[b]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction:And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [/b]

at the end of the day, it all rests on God who shows mercy as He sees fit. For me predestination is all about the mercy of God and indeed that is how it is to be seen so that it is plain to us that it's not about us but it's all about Him.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/9/15 18:51Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 come on sis Diane!

sis Diane

Quote:
Ironman, I’ve been in a hypercalvinism atmosphere, and I can say from personal experience that a false assurance in God’s predestination is really no assurance at all. Even as a kid I wondered why no one had the peaceful assurance that aught to accompany true regeneration. I could see the obsession with works, rules, religiosity, (Hey! Why would you need all that stuff if you are predestined anyway?) In actual fact, the people were NOT depending on God’s sovereign election but on their works. No one CAN depend on their election apart from divine impartation – ie, unless it is real.



sis diane God just blessed my soul this day through your post. indeed nobody can claim predestination unless God has quickened them to it, outside of that you're just ripping and running unsure of where you stand. There is no need for all the jumping through hoops if you have been quickened of God to your election. then being in Christ the drive is then to seek the glory of God in all things so the works which are done are pleasing to Him.

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Church seems to operate the same way. Every time something goes wrong another rule is added in order to prevent that the offence from ever happening again. So you have huge policy manuals. And it doesn’t seem to matter what doctrinal position a church holds. The further away people are from Christ, the more they depend on rules.



whoa, i never looked at it like that. the closer one is to Christ the less the rules come from without or the less one leans on rules and the more one leans on Christ huh?

Quote:
It is the path of death, and there is no way out until God intervenes .... That's where divine election is GOOD NEWS indeed.



AMEN, AMEN and AMEN!

thank you Father, Son and Holy Ghost!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/9/15 19:21Profile





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