moderator, In repsonse to your post. I went ahead and looked up the article you were talking about. To my surprise it turns out I actually fellowshipped about a year with the author.
Anyhow, one thing that I have observed on this thread is alot of statements of Gossip, assumption, quotes taken out of context... Basicaly broad brushing the articles with ridicule and assumptions of your own, the posters.
What I mean is nobody has "proved" any of these accusations. Nobody has said here is the full quote Amy said and it's not what was conveyed in the article. Now you all may not have time or really care. However you need to ask yourself if youve really double checked the "in context" quotes.
Now I will admit I have not checked everyone.But I have checked a few and over the years I have accumilated a few articles from Time mag as well as other christian publications with interviews in them that are cause for concern.
If you do write your rebuttel to charity I would love to see it. If indeed soemthing is proven to be out of context or just pure assumption. I will be the first to say O.K. lets get that corrected.
I know that despite all that many will still disagree. Thats obviously your right and choice but make sure you disagree based on fact and not emotion.
James dobson of focus on the family did a radio program on Christian music pro's and con's(I didm't hear it) but he said they got more calls email's and letters for and against on this isssue than any other they featured. There may have been one other that beat it out or was close. he said emotion ran high on the issue. He said he would probably not do it again.
Lets base our view upon facts and scriptural truth, which I admit on this subject can be hard but not impossible. Humbly submitted, John
P.S. Has anybody seen "Hells Bells 2" video documentary recommended by Ray Comfort?
| 2006/9/10 16:20|
It's just often dishonest and nobody is fooled by it. Most fans know their bands quite well and it is a disservice to fill notions in Christians heads that are inaccurate. Mikeness is right, this is amounts to untested and biased gossip, both by the writer and the receiver. Christian gullibility is just as much a lack of Berean testing the scriptures as it is anything else handed down to us.
Would you be willing to enlighten me as to what was false and what was correct? Just wondering.
As for "Christian rock" I grew up on the stuff. 12 Stones, Kutless, Johna33, Third day, Jeremy Camp (think that's how his name is spelled) and some of DCTalk. They would scream, "RRRRRAAAAAHHHH, IIII LLLLOOOOVVVEEE JJJEEESSSUUUSSS!!!!! God is not glorified in a mere man whom He created screaming at Him. I mean come on, would we do that to our mom or dad? My mother would have corrected me like I don't know what. There is no respect for God in many of these bands. Let the songs and the band members lives show us what they are really made of. 12 Stones came to Richmond a year or two ago along with secular rock groups. They played and entertained the lost people just like the other secular bands.
What dose light have to do with darkness? Noting. They hide their thirst for money and esteem under a cloak of, "We are just trying to reach the lost." Christians don't compromise with the world to reach the world. That is foolishness.
I agree with HW that there is music that is appropriate that is not under some so called "Christian" record label.
| 2006/9/10 16:39||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
It would take far too long to go through and try to correct things. If I can find it, will post a link to the previous mention.
But just for the sake of argument;
Regarding Amy Grant,
[i]Moving quickly into music videos, the Contemporary Christian market has wasted no time. Sadly, the pace to mix and flirt with witchcraft and the occult has also been a fast one. In Amy Grants video, Thats What Love is For, copying the dress style of professed witch, Stevie Nicks, Amy is dressed in a hooded red robe, as is used in witchcraft rituals. Flashing strangely on the palms of each hand, she has fixed a six-pointed-star called a hexagram, which is a symbol heavily associated with occult practices.[/i]
A hooded red robe being equated with that used in witchcraft rituals? And the 'six- pointed- star' ...
One can draw their own conclusions but isn't this a bit over the top to equate some occult linking by Amy Grant? These are the kind of notions that get spread around by even well meaning Christians, but that doesn't mean that they are not exaggerations to try and enforce a point. Frankly, they are just outright lies. What it becomes is a trade off, if it supports what we are saying it's given a pass... pragmatism. This is what I meant about things being 'tainted'. There is enough fodder out there that is true enough not to have to go this route.
| 2006/9/10 16:51||Profile|
Well I went and checked the site you listed in the previous post.
It says.. In ritual magick, the hexagram is called the Seal of Solomon, and represents divine union,being composed of female, watery triangle and a male fiery triangle.The traditional elemental triangles of earth air water and fire are derived from the seal.
In the Hindu religion, the hexagram is called the Shatkona, and is equivelant to the symbolism in ritual magick...also symbol of the god Shiva.
O.K. whats wrong with that picture? pretty obvious to me. We as christians are not to have the "appearance of evil" nor be pasting or printing marks on our hands like the satanist do in their rituals.
Is Amy a closet cultist? I doudt it. Giving her the benefit of the doudt she in he niaveness went along with the directors suggestions.
But if I put on symbols of evil like that and someone comes to me and points all that out. I am called to repent and denounce that.With profuse apology.
I know others must see plainly the above written definition of the symbol. I strongly doudt anybody came away from that video going Wow Sighn of Solomon I gotta go get a bible and read proverbs! The message was something else but not christian. God bless, John
| 2006/9/10 17:21|
One can draw their own conclusions but isn't this a bit over the top to equate some occult linking by Amy Grant? These are the kind of notions that get spread around by even well meaning Christians, but that doesn't mean that they are not exaggerations to try and enforce a point. Frankly, they are just outright lies.
Just another perfect example of why we Christians should be looking in our own mirror maybe just a little longer each morning, seems were not happy unless were trying to dig up every little thing we can about others, we all need to remember God is still on the throne and it's ok for us to leave some things to him to deal with I personally think he does a good job still, but you have some Christians that feel they are called to be critics and expose what others do, and that may very well be, but were much is giving much is required, so those folks may want to do a double take in the mirror each morning.
| 2006/9/10 17:31||Profile|
I don't see what this can do for your argument? I looked at the site and just saw that the hexagram has a far reaching false religious background. That does not help Amy to much if you ask me. There is the attire of a witch and I still can't figure out why she is dressed as one. Seems that she either knew what she was doing, or just to careless to cover her tracks. Nevertheless we are still at the same conclusion, she is dressed up like its halloween. What kinda light is she trying to shine?
| 2006/9/10 17:40||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
"It is associated with the Biblical Solomon, known as the Star of David in the Jewish religion."
Is what came prior ...
This is ridiculous
| 2006/9/10 17:51||Profile|
Just another perfect example of why we Christians should be looking in our own mirror maybe just a little longer each morning
Your statement is true and I'm glad that we can agree on this. But does that mean we allow just anybody to parade themselves into the church and introduce the occult. No.
We must remember, " To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness unto all men" (Titus 3:2).
But we all must remember, "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Mat. 7:16.
The picture looks like the occult. No Christian in their sane mind is going to dress up like she did, much less put it in a music video.
In Christ, Doug
| 2006/9/10 17:53||Profile|
Is that supposed to make her "fling" ok? The hexagrams that are on her hands don't even bare the same resemblance to the star of David, (over lapping). I can't help that these two stars both have six points. Satan always has his counterfeit.
And really. Was she even singing about Israel? Why even throw them in there? To bizarre for me. I don't want to touch the unclean thing...
| 2006/9/10 18:02||Profile|
| Re: Christian Music|
The more I've come to know the Lord, the more I have realized, by the revelation of His grace, that it is not the Christian music that I need, or the listening to sermons (however helpful they can be), but simply coming before Him in prayer and seeking His face, worshipping Him in my own way, without show or pretense, but as I am moved by the Holy Spirit.
I do not "listen" to music anymore. I do not need to be encouraged by somebody's lyrics--be it even biblically correct. I need God. I need His love, His forgiveness. I need the communion of the Holy Ghost. No Christian music can compare or add to the glory of Christ (I am convicted here because I know I am still tempted to seek consolation elsehwere).
In a way, in the beginning of my Christian walk (which I would now call "walk with Christ") I heavily relied on music, ever for growth (imagine how little I read the Word)! Music inspired me, lifted me up. But it was a substitute for the real thing--or it could become one. Indeed, a lot of times God used songs to bring me close to Him or reveal His truth. Yet, brethren, I believe that music should not be about [i]our[/i] listening, not about [i]our[/i] entertainment, but all about the only true God, who dwells within me, and who knows the imaginations of my heart. It should give Him all the glory. He should be the sole object of my praise! And this is not to say that I dislike music--oh, no, do not misunderstand me. I sing to God all the time--and so many worship songs that I love--as long as they come from the heart. As Apostle Paul wrote, "Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph. 5:19-20). I love the the "giving thanks" part. His grace toward us will be in vain if it does not move us to give thanks and to praise Him.
Finally, brethren, if the Spirit of God cannot teach us what the Father finds pleasing, then who can? And are we so immersed in Christ's presence that we cannot do anything but honor Him in all things that we do? Or rather do the things that give Him honor?
The Lord Jesus said in John 7:37-38:
[i]"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)[/i]
May the Spirit guide us in all truth! May we be being baptized continuously in the Holy Spirit! May we let him do His work in our hearts, and leave all idle chatter. Let us talk to Him more than we talk about Him! Let God be our witness and our judge!
P.S. Lastly, I recommend a sermon by Keith Daniel called Absolute Surrender (I believe). God had spoken a lot and showed me a lot (that I have in common with Keith Daniel) even before I heard this wonderful message.
| 2006/9/10 19:01|