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dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
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 Re:

Diane>>>>>pantriber>>>>that brought a much needed chuckle to my funney bone :-)


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D.Miller

 2006/9/6 8:07Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Logic on 2006/9/6 2:09:07 posted...

Quote:
Would you say that it is the anti-christ himself that is holding back since verse 8 seems to put it in context?


If you equate the antichrist with the 'Lawless One' it cannot be the 'antichrist' who is doing the restraining as it is not until the Restrainer is taken out of the midst that the Lawless One is revealed. That doesn't say he wasn't already at work but that his full manifestation was not seen.

The 'mystery of lawlessness' is already at work in verse 7 but the manifestation of the Lawless One in his own Parousia does not occur until the Restrainer is taken out of the midst.

The revelation of the 'man of Sin'occurs before the day of Christ (2:3

I think an important clue to the identity of the 'Lawless One' ( it is a pity that the KJV has broken the link between 'the mystery of lawlessness' in v7 and the 'lawless one' in v8) is Paul's reticence to name him. If this were the Holy Spirit why would Paul not say so? Why this discrete reference to 'when I was yet with you, I told you these things'? I think the most likely hypothesis is that Paul had said something in private that he did not want to say in a public letter. The best fit would be 'The Roman Empire'. The Thessalonians would remember well what Paul had said privately among them but by omitting the title from this public letter Paul protects both himself and those who received the letter from a charge of treason.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/6 9:41Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Christinyou on 2006/9/6 10:43:05 posted...

Quote:
Would you call not taking the mark of the beast and giving their head for a witness to Christ to attain their salvation a works. Especially in believing the two witnesses of the testimony of God. They believing now they must die for the witness of Christ. Ultimate works.


No I would not. It is most certainly a 'work' and a 'good work' but to say this is salvation 'by works' is quite mistaken.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/6 9:44Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Phillip

Quote:
Would you call not taking the mark of the beast and giving their head for a witness to Christ to attain their salvation a works. Especially in believing the two witnesses of the testimony of God. They believing now they must die for the witness of Christ. Ultimate works.



so what shall we say about the martyrs who went before us since they all were martyred before the tribulation? or is it that you believe that all are saved by grace but each one has a different work to do?

Quote:
No death, but life for those that are in Christ before the tribulation. Life in Christ for pre-trib Christ ones. Death for a witness to Christ in the tribulation. We don't have to die to be saved, we are saved by Grace through the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our death does not save us but His Life does.



i don't think that everyone who is a witness for Christ during the tribulation will be killed. the word speaks of them that were beheaded and those who didn't take the mark of the beast. it seems to me that some will die naturally in those days and some will be alive when He returns. i don't believe that the martyrdom of these saints buys them salvation but rather they are saved by grace and their dying for the cause of the Cross is [i][b]because[/b][/i] they are saved.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/9/6 10:14Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
I think the most likely hypothesis is that Paul had said something in private that he did not want to say in a public letter. The best fit would be 'The Roman Empire'.


The Roman Empire will be a newly formed Roman Empire which indicates or implies the "Ten Horns" .

So, in order for the man of sin, the son of perdition to be revealed in his time, The European Union AKA the newly formed Roman Empire must stop restraing the lawless one from being revield.

The Roman Empire are the Ten horns, out of which the little horn comes.
In your oppinion, this means, the Ten Horns must be "taken out of the midst" by or with the little horn.

This can't be right.
[b]Revelation 17:12[/b] [color=990000]And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour [b][u]with[/u] the beast[/b].[/color]
Ref. Dan 7:7,20,24
[color=990000][b]:13[/b] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.[/color]

Could I sugjest that the one who is holding back now is the "Harlot" herself?

Example: How could the anti-christ do this if the Harlot was still around?....[b]2Th 2:4[/b] [color=990000]the one opposing and exalting himself [b]over [u]everything[/u] being called God[/b], or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God.[/color]

Proof text: [b]Revelation 17:16[/b] [color=990000]And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.[/color]

This verse could be when the Harlot comes out of the midst.

 2006/9/6 17:01Profile
Dougmore
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Joined: 2006/8/30
Posts: 122


 Re:

Logic said,

Quote:


Could I sugjest that the one who is holding back now is the "Harlot" herself?



I never thought of that one before. This view should be taken into consideration. If I may ask, Were did you get this position? I would be interested in its origin.

bro Doug

 2006/9/6 19:19Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Through prayerful study, realy.
Came to me and my friend just today as my friend and I was studying it.

 2006/9/6 20:03Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Quote:

""so what shall we say about the martyrs who went before us since they all were martyred before the tribulation? or is it that you believe that all are saved by grace but each one has a different work to do?""

Would you say this is salvation in the old testament?

2Sa 23:5 Although my house [be] not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all [things], and sure: for [this is] all my salvation, and all [my] desire, although he make [it] not to grow.

1 Chronicles 22:9-13 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee. Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God. Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.

Would you say this is salvation in the New Testament?

Ephesians 1:12-23 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Israel was cut off in regard to the mystery of Paul, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Israel, that they might not see or hear until the fullness of the Gentile's be come in. When is this?

In Christ 146 times Paul spoke these words, thus separation the salvation of those who first trusted in Christ form those that kept the Law of Moses with animal sacrifice unto salvation, in separation of those that first trusted in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ, In Christ, In Christ, by birth, not by looking forward to a Messiah that would save Israel When He Comes to David's Throne after the tribulation and in the Millennium. Then it will grow.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/7 0:47Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Logic on 2006/9/6 22:01:18
posted:

Quote:
So, in order for the man of sin, the son of perdition to be revealed in his time, The European Union AKA the newly formed Roman Empire must stop restraing the lawless one from being revield.


Only if you are irrevocably locked into the Futurist scenario. Up until the rise of Scofield et al, my view would have been the prevailing view among the saints.

The Roman Empire and its development into the harlot of Christendom would be fairly standard for Historicists and Preterists. The scarlet woman rides on the scarlet beast and her name is Bablyon, which is the way Christians referred to the city of Rome eg“The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.”
(1Pet 5:13 KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/9/7 4:17Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

1 Peter 5:13 "the church at Babylon"

Peter gives it that name rather than its own, because, being escaped out of prison at Jerusalem, Ac 12:12,25, he would not have it known where he was. But how comes he, that had been so bold before, to be so timorous now? Did this become the head of the church, the vicar of Christ, and prince of the apostles? And is it probable he should live twenty-five years at Rome, (as they pretend he did), and yet not be known to be there? Wherever he was, he had Mark now with him, who is said to have died at Alexandria the eighth year of Nero, and Peter not till six years after. If Mark then did first constitute the church of Alexandria, and govern it (as they say he did) for many years, it will be hard to find him and Peter at Rome together. But if they must needs be to have Rome be meant by Babylon, let them enjoy their zeal, who rather than not find Peter's chair, would go to hell to seek it; and are more concerned to have
The first Pope of Rome be the seat of Peter than the born again church in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/9/7 7:20Profile





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