Well Murray,

If someone was about to kill your family, wouldnt you do all that you can to save them, even kill the person trying to kill your family. If you dont do it, I will.

That is irresponsible, and you can be held accountable for your inactions, to god, and our law (if you lived here in the U.S).

_________________
Matt Kroelinger

ooppss....

Double Post

_________________
Matt Kroelinger

Boomatt,

I didn't say I would just stand there. I would drop them.

You and Krispy think I am critiquing you. I am not. I know nothing.

I am asking why Jesus said what he said?

Murray

_________________
Murray Beninger

Just knew I'd stir up a hornets nest.

I've seen a lot of logic about Hitler and if people would attack my family, but what is a scriptural basis for killing please.

There were people who did not seek the destruction of Hitler, but valiantly hid these precious Jews in thier homes, some of which were indeed put to death for their Christian service. These no doubt are with the Lord.

As for "what if's" I find little use in role playing them. For one, few people would react how they say, so it's nearly futile to go there. These scenerio's also take out the providence and protection of God. But even if they happen, and surely from time-to-time they will, ALL things occur at God's disposal. Before someone freaks out..hear me. Job, suffered calamity upon calamity, and indeed God did not interfere. But all those things worked for the good. So, I suppose if we want to play the "what if" game, I pray I am a strong enough Christian to bear Christian fruit to the glory of the Father in such events.

How many apostles were GI's? None. How many were soldiers of the Cross? All. For all were martyred, killed, beheaded, tortured, stoned, etc, save John. And this has been the true churches testimony throughout the ages.

_________________
Neil Long

here is come commentary from John MacArthur concerning this subject:


"It may surprise some to learn that in the Bible, war itself is not portrayed as inherently wrong, immoral, or ungodly. There are times when God Himself authorizes and condones war as an instrument of justice.

God has given human governments the right to fight wars for self-protection and as a means of justice. The Old Testament is full of incidents where God Himself authorized war and even order the Israelites to wage war. And Scripture is clear in teaching that God still ordains government as the guardian of order and justice in society, and He still gives government the authority to punish evildoers, even by waging war, when necessary (Romans 13:1-4).

I am convinced God gave this power to governments because of His mercy. Otherwise, evil people would dominate. That is why a just war is an expression of divine righteousness. To turn away from justice in the name of peace is not an act of love; it is a refusal to love one’s neighbor as oneself. To dispense with justice would never bring any kind of peace anyway. It would simply allow lawless people to dominate the world in a deadly fashion."



Link: http://www.gty.org/resources.php?section=articles&aid=231137

_________________
Matt Kroelinger

Amen, Murray.

Do you ever hear of any of those dear brothers and sisters who were martyred or are being persecuted today taking up arms against their oppressors? Doesn't vengeance belong to the Lord anymore?

I always read in books about authority that you are to submit to worldly authorities UNLESS they command you to sin. I believe that a Christian's duty is then to continue in submission taking the consequences of your standing for righteousness. I don't think it can be stated more clearly than 2 Cor 10:4.

Peace to you,
Brad.

_________________
Brad Wright

Here's another that kind of puts what I am saying in perspective, sorry for stepping on some toes if I did, I just dont like it when people tell me my brother who is defending YOUR freedom is a murderer. This perspective is from the Assembly of God:


"War and Conscientious Objectors
This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the Assemblies of God have a position on war and conscientious objectors?
The Assemblies of God position on war and conscientious objectors states: "As a Movement we affirm our loyalty to the government of the United States in war or peace. We shall continue to insist, as we have historically, on the right of each member to choose for himself whether to declare his position as a combatant [one who willingly serves in positions of violence], a noncombatant [one who serves only in nonviolent ways], or a conscientious objector [one who refuses to participate in any form of military service because of personal convictions regarding war]." (Article XXII of the Bylaws)

The implications of the above statement are clear. The Assemblies of God is committed to a position of loyalty to the government. Second, that loyalty is not imperiled by the presence of war. And third, all members are encouraged to exercise their personal convictions in how they will respond during times of war whether combatant, noncombatant, or as a conscientious objector.

What are the biblical principles which support this position? 1) The Scriptures call for civic loyalty: "Everyone must submit himself to governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established" (Romans 13:1). 2) On occasion, those authorities must bear arms: "He does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (Romans 13:4). 3) The Scriptures call for the employment of personal conscience in all matters. "Each of us will give an account of himself to God" (Romans 14:12).

In light of this, how are we to understand the sixth commandment: "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13)? The Hebrew word used here (raisach) in the ancient manuscripts is descriptive of an act of willful and personal vengeance. While the outcome may be similar to the killings of war, the motive and driving force are quite different. The language of Exodus 20:13 does not suggest that we are to disallow participation in war, even if that participation involves killing. The preservation of peace and tranquillity sometimes makes this response imperative.

The Assemblies of God as a Movement deplores war. Therefore we are committed to its avoidance as much as accountability, sensibility, and responsibility allow. This will be the necessary posture, until the Prince of Peace–Jesus Christ—establishes His reign over a world that is now characterized by violence, wickedness, and war.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above statement is based upon our common understanding of scriptural teaching. The official delineation of this position is found in the General Council Bylaws, Article XXII.

All Scripture quotations are from the New International Version (NIV) unless otherwise specified."



Link: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/contempissues_11_war.cfm

_________________
Matt Kroelinger

The idea that troops are winning my "freedom" is an absolute farce!

ONLY JESUS IS ABLE TO GIVE FREEDOM!

One would say that American freedom isn't freedom at all....but a different kind of bondage. Sin abounds in the states.

I am absolutely sure that there are people in China (under communism) that are more free in Christ than I am (in supposed freedom).

Beyond this freedoms are becomming a thing of the past. Try street preaching sometime. Clock how fast the police come and try to tell you you have to stop. Usually somewhere in the ballpark of 5 minutes to an hour.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate this country and its laws. But the thought of people killing so I can have 1st ammendment rights appeals little to me. I say take my rights and if that changes me then I wasn't free in the first place.

_________________
Neil Long

I will be sure to pass this info to my brother.

_________________
Matt Kroelinger