SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re: Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...

Quote:
--- [b]OK, are you exampling this as to why so many people hate Jews ... [/b] That being that many Jews seem industrious and have a tendency to prosper where-ever they settle, while most of the indigenous folk are content with their own laziness until such industriousness shows them up, then instead of blaming themselves for their lot in life they blame the new minority?

Rahman,

I hate generalisations (now, in my old age), as I probably used them sweepingly for years, and I realise this is not how people are saved. The gospel of grace is to every man and woman and child, each as individuals.... so I'm concerned at the impact on readers of phrases such as 'so many people hate Jews ...' because this gives absolutely [b]no[/b] perspective on what you mean by 'so many'.

In your paragraph above which I've quoted in full, you go on to refer to the Ibos as the minority (which they were - not only ethnically but religiously as Christians in the Muslim parts of Nigeria), but 'so many' might be an even smaller (but influential) number than the 'minority'.... might it not? This could not, then, be 'so many'.... could it?

We know that people are like sheep - easily led - and easily led astray at that. You titled your response 'Anti-Semitism in Britain? ...' and this too, I find .... shall I say.... at least slightly inflammatory.

I asked my adult son, last evening, if he was aware of anti-Semitism either present or rising amongst those with whom he mixes at work and socially, and he said definitely not... This is not to say that he has never heard a comment referring to someone as a Jew, but, in his mind, this is not common, and certainly not more than antagonism towards other groups such as 'gays' or Pakistanis.

I would also point out that British government policy has been going on quietly for decades, while long ago Jews were absorbed into British society silently - because of previous persecution of embarrassing proportions.... but now, to be Jewish here is as accepted as many other nationalities who enjoy equality with other British citizens without referrence to their ethnic identity. Of course, some of those other nationalities are also Jewish, but no-one spends time making the distinction. Jewish people who stake public claim to their Jewishness get no more attention (probably less) in the media, than 'black' people, or the Welsh, or the singular failure of the Equal Opportunities Commission to [i]ensure[/i] that women are treated equally by employers.

 2006/8/19 5:47
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Trying to be as Wise as a Serpent and as Gentle as a Dove ...



dorcas you wrote;

"so I'm concerned at the impact on readers of phrases such as 'so many people hate Jews ...' because this gives absolutely no perspective on what you mean by 'so many'."


---Hmmmm ... i used the phrase "so many" to denote that i don't know a specific number, but am attempting to get some perspective on this, that's why i've read and posted so many links to surveys, tho "many" to me seems likes more than less, and i also guess within this number varies the degrees from hate to dislike ... i've worked with folk (in America) over the years who had from a disdain for the Jew to outright hatred, and it was interesting to hear their reasons why ... i believe that in Germany pre-holocaust there were those who were in the minority that just outright hated the Jew (they became the leaders), and a majority (excluding those with no ill feelings toward Jews at all) who once the "haters" set the agenda followed them to the degree of their dislike for the Jew ... i found it interesting during WW2 that when it got hot in Europe for the fleeing Jew there were no countries willing to accept them (even America except for some scentific elite), and as Hitler's forces overrode Europe even western european countries (governments and citizens) gave them up ... So based on history i don't think anyone reading this thread will have to much trouble with my saying "so many people" ... i posted this thread hoping to hear from saints in european countries to find out if in fact they feel anti-semitism is again on the rise in europe and is that "so many people" in their view either decreasing or increasing ... Your report from Britain says there's not a problem, and i've taken note as such ---


[b]dorcas you wrote[/b];
"In your paragraph above which I've quoted in full, you go on to refer to the Ibos as the minority (which they were - not only ethnically but religiously as Christians in the Muslim parts of Nigeria), but 'so many' might be an even smaller (but influential) number than the 'minority'.... might it not? This could not, then, be 'so many'.... could it?

We know that people are like sheep - easily led - and easily led astray at that. [b]You titled your response 'Anti-Semitism in Britain? ...' and this too, I find .... shall I say.... at least slightly inflammatory."[/b]

--- As to the top portion of your statement i think i covered it in the first part of this post ... So yes the most dangerous haters could be just a little group, but those whom you called "so easily led astray" are the ones to be really concerned about, for in WW2 Germany once the more satanically inspired "haters" attained the commradierie of "those so easily led astray" the Jew in Europe didn't stand a chance ... i'm under the impression that this happened once in Europe, and under anti-christ (perhaps even leading up to) it may happen again ...

[b] As to your statement about my titled responce "Anti-Semitism in Britain?" did you notice that i put a question mark behind it - so technically i meant it as a question and not a statement ... As to anything i post here, survey links included, if you read my: "For The Record" post that's why i stated i'm coming at this topic from a Christian/spiritual first bend, and not from national of ethnic, which is also why i felt led to post the surveys on anti-semetism in America, just in case a saints national or ethnic pride might take offense[/b] ...

That is why my response to you was;

Quoting me;
"Now your post has made me single out Britain in this research and this is what i've found" ... According to the stats anti-semitsm in Britain is nowhere near as bad as it is in other parts of Europe ... That's good to hear, and stands for reason as the UK doesn't seem to be so much an ally of the EU as it is of the U.S."

Did you check out this website tho? ... This is the latest survey i could find about increasing anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe;

EUROPE -
6/7/05
ADL Survey in 12 European Countries Finds Anti-Semitic Attitudes Still Strongly Held
http://www.adl.org/anti_semitism/european_attitudes_may_2005.pdf

Notice pages 12 & 25

i posted this thread to find out "IF" and "WHY" anti-semetism may be raising it's ugly head higher again in Europe ... According to the stats it is, and the interesting "WHY" is not so much based on the old predjudices but has all to do with Jews in Europe being guilty by association with what's not liked about the operations of the nation of Israel itself, with added disdain for it being tied to America ... So its also a part of anti-American sentiment ...This is primarily what i wanted to understand ...

And praise God on the rest of your statement about Jews in Britain enjoying all the same amenities as any other British citizens ... If i had to give advice to any european Jew i'd tell them if you can't get out of Europe at least try to get to Britain, or perhaps Israel itself tho it's dangerous in its own right, but if you can get out come to America before we institute a moritorium on immigration (which i believe is soon coming) ... i thought just last night if i were Jewish i'd rather be poorer in America than richer in Europe ...

Also i notice you made mention of the Pakistani citizens you have in the UK ...
Do you think that your arab/muslim citizens will continue to enjoy uninterupted their British citizen rights say in light of the latest terrorist your government foiled? ... i can tell you that i believe here in the states arabs/muslims are soon gonna experience the likes of predjudice and hatred unprecedented, and i dare say that if any of them ever begin to blow themselves up in our malls, etc., no ethnic looking middle easterner will be safe in this country ... i wonder what the former colonialist countries such as Britain and France, with such large arab/muslim citizentry, can do as terrorism escalates amongst them? ... Interesting times we're living in! ...

[b] Again, to all, not trying to tweak national or ethnic sore points, just trying to pay attention to the signs by finding out facts[/b] --- :-D

 2006/8/21 10:56Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 IS HATE TO STRONG A WORD? ...



Just thinking out loud some more, but Dorcas' replies have made me think about a number of things here;

1 - In reference to numbers should "so many" be changed to "many"?

2 - In reference to hate, is hate to strong a word and perhaps i should say dislike?

3 - In reference to tying ancient things (like lineages and what God says about them) to our modern day, should i just leave such things out of this equation?

So should my thread title just simply be:
Why are the Jews Disliked by so many Europeans & Russians?


To me this just brings it right down to the "natural" and completely dismisses the "supernatural" and it's Biblical statements/explanations ...


1 - MANY vs SO MANY? ...

First off i believe in the spiritual, as Christ Himself said, we're either "for or against Him, His will, way, word and plan" ... Just because one might mildly reject "the Way of God" which then and now He examples to other people via His chosen people who bear His name, still won't keep one out of Hell ... The mere fact that one rejects the carriers of His name, is just a nicer way of saying they reject Him! ... God puts no degrees of gray to rejection ...

i believe that even now tho most Jews reject Christ as Messiah, they still suffer HATE (not just dislike) primarily amongst the gentiles because they once carried God's name (still guilty by association), and secondarily amongst some misguided Christians because many Jews rejected Christ and called for His crucifiction, and thirdly tho many people may not realize it satan knows that God ain't finished with them yet as i believe Rev. 12 makes plain, and that all destroyed at the battle of Armegeddon, and after the 1,000 year reign of Christ Ezek.37 & 38, has Israel and Jerusalem at the very center of the reason WHY ...

According to;

Top 10 Largest National Jewish Populations (1997 polling)
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_judaism.html

Of the almost 6 billion people on the planet today Jews as a ethnic group make up about 15 - 17 million souls with about 3 million of them in Russia, France and UK today, 5 million in the US and about 5 to 6 million in Israel ... Amazing isn't it that even today 5 to 6 million Israelis in a sliver of a country has all the great powers of the world sitting on the edge of their UN seats? ...


2 - HATED OR JUST DISLIKED -
i looked up the word "dislike" in my KJV Bible search and it's not listed once, tho the word "hate" is listed 235 times, some in OT reference to how gentiles felt about ancient Israel (which i believe is just a carryover today), and some in reference to how unbeliever's feel about Christ' Church today and it all has to do with bearing His name;


Luke.21:17 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

John.7:7 - The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John.15
[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
[23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
[24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

i believe if you're special to God, you're a target of the devil ... Israel (i believe) is still speacial to God, tho not in the sense that we the Church are now in this time of "grace" ... But i also believe to be yet attached to the name of God OT or NT will get you "hate" in the supernatural, tho in the natural it's much more comfortable to knock it down to dislike ... And even tho some of us saints aren't undergoing any real hate type persecution here in the west according to scripture everyone who ain't of Jesus hates Him and ALL WE that are associated with Him ...

According to;

Major Religions of the World
Ranked by Number of Adherents
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Out of almost 6 billion people on the planet today professing Christians are about 1.9 billion (33%) ... That means that 2/3rds. of the globe, including those practicing Judaism, hate Christ as the only means to the Father, and we who proclaim His great commision ... Pretty sobering thought that 2/3rds. of the world in Christ talk hates us!

3 - DOES THE ANCIENT IMPACT THE MODERN -

This is most fascinating because it's evident to me that all that happened in Genesis is impacting our modern lives today, and i believe Noah's curse/blessings right after the flood does so in ways we'll never understand on this side of glory ...

i find it amazing that even after the 1,000 year reign of Christ that when satan is released a final time he'll be able to find followers against Christ and the unwalled dwellings of Jerusalem in the following nations;

- Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal
(descendants of Japheth = Russia)
- Persia (descendants of Japheth = Iran)
- Ethiopia (descendants of Ham)
- Libya (descendants of Ham)
- Gomer, and all his bands (descendants of Japheth = some point to Germany)
- the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands
(descendants of Japheth = some point to the Turks)

Interesting that a portion of the descendants of Ham and a great many of Japheth's are named here amongst a hatred that reaches even after the glorious millenial reign ... Now that's hatred long, deep and dark! ... :-?

 2006/8/21 16:35Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 What's Russia's Problem? ...



The Reemergence of Political Anti-Semitism in Russia
http://www.adl.org/russia/russian_political_antisemitism_3.asp


Anti-Semitism in Russia: 2002
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/as_russia.asp


Anti-Semitism in the Post-Soviet States
2 April 2003
Betsy Gidwitz
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-7.htm

 2006/8/21 16:48Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Jews: between the Rock (God) and a hard place (gentiles)? ...



i've been listening to some Rabbis on this jewish website and i'm learning a lot, but i have to admit that if it were not for Holy Spirit's ministering i would be very offended by some of the things said about Christ and Christianity and i really (in my soul/flesh) don't like the word "goyim" ... It's not that i don't like the word as much as the way some of the Rabbis i'm listening to use it ... i also noticed that Jews who convert to Christianity catch a pretty rough deal from some of these Rabbis on this site ... i guess i'd not realized how much Jews who've become Christians are regarded as traitors by so many other Jews ...


Judaism: God's Chosen Religion? # BA 655 C
by Berger, Rabbi Motty
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8&directkw=Christianity

anti-missionary
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8&directkw=anti-missionary


i'm wondering if the stinging comments about Christ and Christianity, and the disdain i hear in the word "goyim" have always been felt/spoken by many Jews, or is it because of the history of abuse gentiles and Christianity (which many speak of as Catholicism alone) have leveled against the Jews, and in particular is it a "now" product of the Holocaust? ... i don't rightly know, but history tells me that the majority of Jewish orthodoxy/Rabbis at Jesus time didn't like Him to the point of plotting His death, and i would think that subsequent Rabbis wouldn't like Him or His followers either ... Does anyone know if Jews, particularly from say 1850 to the refounding of the nation in 1948 were highly visible in their criticism of Christ and Christianity? ... Or were they, as it seems, pretty much quiet about such matters in public, and if discussed at all was discussed mongst themselves? ... From researching i do know that there were some very outspoken Jews in the 1800's who were the fathers of Zionism, and that there were all types of Zionist political and religious ...

An interesting thing i heard one of these Rabbis say in regards anti-semetism is something that i concluded earlier ... He said that by the very fact that Jews initially were picked out to carry God's name, and to govern their lives by His Law, that they are a reminder to the gentile that there is one God, and that we too tho non Jew are also convicted by the Law ...

World Perfect: The Jewish Impact on Civilization -
by Spiro, Rabbi Ken
http://www.aishaudio.com/search/results.php?sid=wsig1e1mky4kiv8&directkw=history

In essence, as apparently Hitler commented on, the Jew is a pain to the gentile because it was by them that God birthed His Law which condemns and convicts all men to our failings spiritually, morally and ethically ... This makes sense to me in line with why Ham rejected Shem, and i would think that of Japhet's lineage, whose motto seems to be "prosperity by any means necessary" would pretty much choke on a religiously pious people who projected even a mild disdain on immoral and unethical ill gotten gain ... In one of the history lessons on this site it states than many a Jew in Europe had came to the conclusion between WWI and WWII that in order to not stand out so much they would assimilate, particulary into German society, and that they would shed Judaism ... Many became Christians, while others just abandoned God altogether ... None of this seemed to do them any good in Europe as history attest, and now it seems the anti-semetism of the past has now been traded in for anti-zionism today ...

This leads me to some observations about Jews who have become Christians ... Let me say up front that i'm not trying to get any one bent out of shape but these are some things i wonder ...

According to Gal.3 Paul says;
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

These are my ponderings;

1 - Technically by this scripture, spiritually, religiously, is there any such thing as a Messianic Jew, or are you/they just a Christian like everyone else? ...

2 - i've often wondered why in so many Christian Jewish congregations there seems to be an attempt to marry their/your former Judaism to their/your newer Christianity ... Is this spiritually correct, or is it like what i believe our Lord has shown me to be a similar problem in congregations that are primarily American African - that being that we're trying to juggle our former Am/Af agenda with our new Christ agenda ... Case in point, i've sat in Am/Af churches where i know for a fact white members/visitors have been offended by Am/Af agendas that had nothing to do with Christ's ...

3 - If by faith in Christ alone we ALL become Abraham's seed and joint heirs to that historical promise is it right for a person of Jewish descent (lineage and/or religiously) to still attempt to set oneself out even as a fulfilled Jew, and is part of the reason for doing so a way of creating ones own niche in Christ due to now not being able to fit into a percieved gentile church, or perhaps to distinguish a congregation as such a safe haven for other Jewish converts? ...

4 - Or do many Christians of Jewish descent feel pressured to form congregations amongst themselves because the majority "so called" gentile Christians still hold a certain amount of predjudice against them, as in the same vein was/is also percieved by so many saints of Hamitic descent toward fellow saints of Japhethic descent ? ...

5 - What does one Lord, one faith, one baptism really mean? ...

6 - Doesn't any other former agenda (regardless of who or what it is or we are) joined to His own agenda, in His Church, promote division instead of our "oneness" in Christ? ...

7 - "Churchianity" (exclusive mentality) or "Christianity" (all inclusive mentality) which are we really practicing in the name of Jesus Christ ? ...

i'm finding this an interesting subject and subject matter ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

 2006/8/29 11:47Profile









 Re: Jews: between the Rock (God) and a hard place (gentiles)? ...

Quote:
i guess i'd not realized how much Jews who've become Christians are regarded as traitors by so many other Jews ...

Me neither.

You go on to ask a lot of questions which I've also asked...

I think the one about marrying Christianity to Jewishness is good, and there is nothing wrong with pointing up that Christ fulfilled everything in the Old Covenant. However, I can see one has to move on from there, and I've never had to give up my Scottishness (nor wish to, because it is somewhat of an asset in the world-wide community). I'm not sure how many 'Jews' are giving up 'Judaism' with a clear conscience, and simply retaining their ethnic identity.

Here is William Tyndale's rendering of Romans 2:28, 29:

For he is not a Jew, which is a Jew outward. Neither is that thing circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But, he is a Jew which is hid within and the circumcision of the heart is the true circumcision, which is in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 2006/9/3 10:35









 Re: Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...

Why make the distinction with Shem and Jepheth?

Why not speak in New Testement terms, the old man Adam and the new Man Christ Jesus?

Old Adam Shem hates old Adam Jepheth. Whether this old man lives in the North or the South, they'll hate one another.

By the way in Christ, God doesn't recognize any ethnic groups, for they are all one in Christ Jesus.

 2006/9/3 17:40
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re: Jews: between the Rock (God) and a hard place (gentiles)? ...

Rahman wrote:

Quote:
He said that by the very fact that Jews initially were picked out to carry God's name, and to govern their lives by His Law, that they are a reminder to the gentile that there is one God, and that we too tho non Jew are also convicted by the Law ...



I would guess this is the heart of the conflict that exists between Jews and others. Now add Christians to this mix and the number of people to be hated grows larger for the same reason.

To suggest that because of something that happened several thousand years ago between some men is why the animosity still exists is ridiculous UNLESS there is a spiritual dimension involved and that is what I am suggesting is the contributing problem. There have been many other people who have come and gone during the past eons whose hatred for each other was sharp but today we know nothing about it outside of recorded history.

My suggestion on this issue is that there is a spiritual dimension involved here unlike any other hostilities that exisit between ethnic groups.

Just my thoughts...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2006/9/4 9:08Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Karl

Quote:
Why make the distinction with Shem and Jepheth?



the distinction between jew and gentile remains even until the Revelation so evidently there is a purpose for it. as our Lord had me go through Romans 9, HE showed me that where we are unified as one in Christ is as it pertains to salvation, none can be saved outside of Christ whether you are a Jew or not. However there are some things which i as a gentile can have no part in because i am not a jew and vice versa. Like sister Ginnyrose said, there is a spiritual component to this which until it is addressed, the symptoms of hate and so on will remain.

Quote:
By the way in Christ, God doesn't recognize any ethnic groups, for they are all one in Christ Jesus.



Christ still does and indeed God still recognizes the different ethnic groups because they each have unique things to do in the fulfilment of His plan. however He doesn't make any differentiation as far as salvation is concerned.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/9/7 11:58Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Bro Karl ...



Bro Karl you wrote;
"Why make the distinction with Shem and Japheth?"

---You'd have to go all the way back to the beginning and read thru to find out why i asked about what/why the division was/is between Japheth and Shem at Noah's cursing of Canaan ... i was wondering if Noah's decree that Japheth would prosper, but dwell in the tents of Shem was percieved by Japheth as a blessing or a curse ---



Bro Karl you wrote;
"Why not speak in New Testement terms, the old man Adam and the new Man Christ Jesus?"

--- Because my asking is strictly a literal OT question that has no analogy with Adam and Christ ... It's asked in light of so many ancient hatreds among lineages still being manifested in our very present time ... The battle between good/evil has it's roots in the ancient, and God certainly decreed some prophetic utterances regarding lineages that are far reaching ---


Bro Karl you wrote;
"By the way in Christ, God doesn't recognize any ethnic groups, for they are all one in Christ Jesus."

--- Amen, i like to say all we in Christ are seen by God in one color: Crimson red = Christ' shed blood ... But folk down here on the ground (specifically the unsaved) sure do recognize ethnicity, and they react often very violently as did Hitler and his following ... i posted this in reference to why a renewed increase of anti-semitism (Shem) in europe (primarily inhabited by the descendants of Japheth) just trying to get an idea of what are Jews doing now that's got so many European's twisted - AGAIN?... Seems it's the consensus of the EU, after two WW's on their continent, that "religion" is at the center of war ... Their solution politically is to get rid of "religion" and become secular, and now they've not much tolerance for the likes of America (Christian) or Israel (Judaism) who's religion is increasingly showing thru in their politics, in lockstep with and at logerheads with Arabia (Islam) ...

Also in light of the Revelation (after the church's rapture as i believe) it still seems to me that God the Father is still pretty interested in at least one ethnic group, the same ones He sent His Son thru, the line of Shem, and is now known to many as "the Jewish carpenter from Nazareth" ... This is what i see, if you or anyone else see different that's fine with me as i'll not argue the points ... i'm interested in learning others views on this subject, tho not to argue them as much as share and discuss ---

 2006/9/7 12:52Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy