I understand where you are coming from Mike.
A small gnawing concern I have at churches who use the contemporary format, is how the band can often be used as a holy spirit smoke machine,,,if we want people to feel sad and tender we can have the band play in a slow minor key. If we want people to feel excited we can signal the drummer to lay down a rousing backbeat. I think some of this is just fine...but a steady diet of it I believe leads to the congregation responding to the apparatus rather then the Holy Spirit.
I don't want to ban contemporary band music really! Well maybe for a season...perhaps a 'music fast' would be instructive in showing us how dependent we can be on our emotions to worship God.
(edit: 'nuff said...)
Where are drums ever to be permitted in the church?
| 2006/8/13 17:31|
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers [b]shall[/b] worship the Father in spirit and in truth ( or song and dance? ): for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him[b] must[/b] worship him in spirit and in truth (or song and dance?).
Do these verses provide us with options as to worship style, taste or preferences? And should we add on the things of the flesh to stir our spirit in our 'truth'?
Song and dance rest with religions, while Spirit and Truth belongs with faith.
hope I'm not being critical
| 2006/8/13 18:02||Profile|
Hope I'm not being critical
Criticism isn't sin. Criticism isn't the same as self-righteousness. (I'm sure you know this!)Why, silence can be very sinful and self-righteous!
Every day in the work place I deal with criticism. It's part of accepting leadership. If what I am working on isn't right it must be redone. This is how people know to take me serious when I ask them to count on me to serve them. Now and then I face criticism that is invalid and must work through that, with respect. More then once I had to accept criticism and correction that was quite valid, and had to face the unpleasant consequences.
Now contrast this to 'ministries' who act like their tax exemption gives them a critical exemption as well. They want influence, but handling criticism is part of being influencial. When leading people you have to put your big boy pants on. ;-) We don't have to talk hateful towards one another, but I welcome good criticism, even when it hurts deeply. It's part of maintaining integrity.
This idea that most Christians are too critical is suspect to me...really I think most Christians are too self-absorbed and indifferent to care enough to be critical. (Church is recreational for too many Christians.)
Critical thinking is a lost art in our thin-skinned society. American evangelical Christianty is riddled with superstition and sentimentalty because people are afraid to confront irrational thinking and gross biblical error critically.
In managing people I've discovered that most employee 'trouble-makers" are the ones who care enough to get upset about stuff. Some may be too easily agitated but at least they bring it. The ones I worry about are those who stew in silence, always afraid of the risk of offending.
The same goes for ministry. Ministries want to influence people...well why not. Yet, many don't want counter-influence...why is that? Because many of them know their program and agenda is not defendable through scripture, so they intimidate people with this notion of a "critical spirit" when what they are really counting on is the status quo laodecian church. (We have to keep in mind, some ministries actually like the way things are in the church.) They know the last thing a Christian would want to be called is "unloving" and many play this powerful card whenever they realize they are holding a weak hand scripturally speaking.
Mamaluk, don't be afraid of being critical. Be afraid of being cold and unloving. Keep right on thinking and speaking critically...it's a sign that you love the Church.
Ormly, I don't know about drums...and the whole shootin' match brother. I eliminated 2/3 of my original post because I thought I would cause more conflict then good...I was afraid of the risk of saying something offensive;-) ...but in it I expressed my own convictions on this issue. I just didn't think my convictions warranted offending anyone, because in the end, music isn't the heart of worship anyway.
| 2006/8/13 21:23||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
MC, thank you.
| 2006/8/13 23:42||Profile|
Ormly, I don't know about drums...and the whole shootin' match brother. I eliminated 2/3 of my original post because I thought I would cause more conflict then good...I was afraid of the risk of saying something offensive ...but in it I expressed my own convictions on this issue. I just didn't think my convictions warranted offending anyone, because in the end, music isn't the heart of worship anyway.
Thank you, MC, for statng your thoughts, convictions and experience.
I have a couple to offer that may help explain my positon.
While a can't disagree nor wouldn't come against your motive for your statements, I believe to be pure, I wonder if you are not overlooking the fact that some parts of the attempt to worship by some can be a hindrance to others who are wish to enter in but can't due to the "Uncertain sound". Common sense should prevail in this, more certainly Spiritual sense, but alas and alac, in this age of "new thinking" about worship it seems common sense has been sufficiently altered, by consensus reasoning, moving the minds of leadership to accept into it ranks those who would further alter it; Spiritual sense being relegated out in the process. Can you see my reasoning here? In other words there are some things that do not lend themselves to leading others to worship or even allow them to enter in should they force their way through the barriers presented them. I have found that should anyone succeed in his or her efforts, nothing awaits them upon entering they hoped for, God isn't there. Why, you may ask? Because the beauty of Holiness is not there and everyone should recognize beauty by the Holy Spirit when they see it or hear it. Obviously, this should take care of the issue of dress as well. What has happened to modesty and reverence for God?
Scripturally, the church is not about saving people. For that matter, evangelism should not be either but that is another subject we might discuss in more depth, so I am not misunderstood. The Church [meeting] is for God's people to come together that they might worship Him. The Church is also for edifying from the scriptures and the presence of the Holy Ghost, those born into Christ who need nurturing in the community of the saints who have perfected or are pressing into relationship with the Father. Chambers would agree with this to be sure. Therefore, the thinking that the un-saved should be accommodated in some way, other than warm hospitality, is un-warranted.
If the Holy Spirit does not do the "winning" of souls from us, what spirit from us does do it, should we be successful in the matter? Should we not insure that it is the Holy Spirit who woos and wins the un-saved and not words or music that accommodates a compromise. However, the person who by whatever means, is won to Christ must put on his "wedding garment". The church, as we see it today, offers none.
[i]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who [b]suppress the truth[/b] in unrighteousness[/i] Romans 1:18 (NASB-U)
PS. I point to drums because they were never used to worship God in the Bible. I can certainly understand why.
| 2006/8/14 5:43|
| Re: SICK RAP WORSHIP VIDEO FOR RICK WARREN'S 2006 WORSHIP CONFERENCE|
Compton pointed out:
Quote:You cornered a kernel of truth here, brother. 8-)
They know the last thing a Christian would want to be called is "unloving" and many play this powerful card whenever they realize they are holding a weak hand scripturally speaking.
| 2006/8/14 5:44|
[i]Scripturally, the church is not about saving people. For that matter, evangelism should not be either but that is another subject we might discuss in more depth, so I am not misunderstood. The Church [meeting] is for God's people to come together that they might worship Him.[/i]
Thank you for mentioning this. Absolutely true! That, perhaps points to the root 'problem'. When God was displeased with Israel over the 'mix multitude' by mingling with gentiles, it's a similar scenario we have on Sunday morning in most churches. (The one we now attend separate the Sunday mornings out as "Ministry of the Word" services for the mix crowd (saved and unsaved), while in the evenings they have "Worship" services for the believers only, along with bread breaking.)
Worshiping with the unsaved, is it even possible? Spiritually speaking, how can there be a unity of spirit and truth?
The unequal yoke factor here alone might bring out other hindrances, especially when the unsaved or the "pseudo-Christians" ( I don't mean this in a bad way, there are people that think they are Christians without knowing what Christianity is about, I think ) are mixed in with the true Christians,requesting/preferring to "worship" with their spirits and their ideals, as oppose to what we are commanded in John 4:23-24,
'[b][i]but the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers SHALL worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seek such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship him in spirit and in truth.'[/i][/b]
As I mentioned previously that a long time ago, I was a choir member (soloist occasionally) and invited to become a "dance minister" with liturgical dance worship at some churches, as "glamorous" it might sound to some, it's repulsive to me, it reminds me of the dancing beneath the golden calf at Mt.Sinai. Singing and dancing before any congregation is mere distraction from one's spirit union with the Holy Spirit, and now rapping?? Hip-hop, I plead with you all, think just what the words hip-hop alone mean. Just think. Should we go to a bar to worship? What is sanctification but separation unto the Holy God? Christians are a called-out people, separated, sanctified to CHRIST. We are not to be "party" goers or party-style worshipers. Bigger is not better!!
Entertaining the youth, another trendy pursuit, why? Youth should be able to learn holiness by examples of the older Christians, why the other way around, seeking to please the youth? Should we old Christians learn to rap and hip-hop to draw them to the Lord, just because our children and youth can't sit still? Is our Bible too boring for them?
What's wrong here? Church leaders, if you happen to be reading this, what's wrong? Please, I welcome reprove if I happen to be wrong. Why are we always focusing on our youth but not CHrist, not holiness, Psalm 46:10
[b]Be still, and know that I am God[/b], said the LORD.
God draws our spirit with His Truth ( Word), but with song and dance?? HE would have told us to dance and sing and play lots of music as in the days of Israel (before the descending of the Holy Spirit). Not only that, as in John 4, they were wondering if they had to worship in Jerusalem? So, does that mean that we should all go worship in Jerusalem with our trumpets and harps and dances and .......?
Thank God, HE convicted me with the above verses, worshiping in emotions and the flesh alone, may not be honoring to Him. In Samuel, God said that [b]obedience is better than sacrifice.[/b].
I love godly hymnals, and I do sing often to praise Him ,as we are exhorted by Paul to sing psalms and hymns, making melodies [b]in our hearts[/b], praising God that way, but to PERFORM to each other ??? On the other hand, I'm not opposed to entertainment with inspirational flare, plays, dance, music and paintings, or even in an witnessing mode. But worshiping or evangelizing with these things? For me, the focus has to be The living Word of the Cross.
As I type this, I can hear objections already,they will say "it's not practical", practical for what end? Buildings? Money? Pride? Head counts? Fame? Success? Isn't faith and obedience more precious, if not important?
Thank you also MC for your encouragement. I guess I don't have to keep ending all my posts by saying "hope I'm not critical" or other apologizing signatures.
| 2006/8/14 10:10||Profile|
| Re: Those Old Negro Spirituals ...|
Sis D you wrote;
"A question: in your Af/Am churches, aren't you singing those wonderful spirituals - that your ancestors are so well-known for?"
Yes, in a lot of them they're still around, but as with the nation that older generation is dying out and those old songs are being replaced ... In my own assignment the old minister of music retired almost 2 years ago, and there's now a 30 something M of M ... Plus much emphasis is put on "contemporary" in the quest to appeal to the younger, to the dismay of a lot of the olders tho many of the olders have begun to speak up, and so the newer music (rap included) has been relegated to the "youth group and worship services" (which i still see as a cop-out) ...
But we have at least one youth minister who will appreciate the ExMinistries web site (which i've e-mailing to him) ....
| 2006/8/14 13:24||Profile|
| Re: Those to looooooong posts! ...|
Bro Mike you wrote;
"I agree! One of these days will figure out what the word 'condense' means ..."
--- Bro unless our Lord brings you to that condensation, i pray you'll never figure out how to on your own ... It's my belief He uses the "long-winded" to confound those of us who want it in a "sound-bite" ... When in fact it is Holy Spirit who leads someone to pour out their heart (as i believe He does with you) in matters pertaining to our Lord in a long post, only those led by Holy Spirit to read will do so ...
So please don't take it upon yourself to cut anything short - i'm a long poster too, and have no problem when led of Holy Spirit to reading other long posts ---
| 2006/8/14 13:27||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| 2006/8/14 15:48||Profile|