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I based it on the email I read.

I went to her site, looked thru a few articles, it was nice.

I didn't mean to start a debate either, but is it a "world full of deception" or a church full of deception?

if its a "world", thats no surprise, coz satan is ruler of the world, the "god of this age".

I have nothing against Jan Markell, just disagree with points of her email letter.

 2006/8/8 16:31

Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772

 Re: Melissa

I apologize if I sounded defensive, I reread and it did sound harsh. I understand your viewpoint about using candles and incense, and I don't think that used in the way you are suggesting is what she is objecting to. I do believe that there is deception in the churches today...take a look at the Episcopal church if you think there isn't. Our enemy is very tricky and if he can slip a lie in along with the Truth to deceive many he will.

God Bless you, Brother.


 2006/8/8 16:36Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


I hear ya Bartle. We are probably on the same page. I don't like it when a few people hijack a movement. I would love to learn I was over worried from my own limited exposure to this 'movement.' (If you can call it that.)

Recently someone observed humerously to me that the world of Celtic music is tricky. He pointed out that when he goes to buy an 'Irish' or 'Celtic' music CD, he has too listen to it first. This is because 'Celtic' music has come to mean too many things...Traditional, folk, new age, electronica, even rock.

Apparently the Emergent Church is alot like Celtic music. It's being marketed as the post-modern cure for all of modern Christianities flaws. If modern church is too modern, then post-modern is ancient. If modern church is too big, then post-modern is intimate. If modern church is too segregated, then post-modern is multi-cultural. Anythng that is offensive or dissapointing with the modern church, the post-modern church presumes to remedy.

I'm cool with all of those visions...just finding it all to be somewhat nebulous when you try to pin it down. I guess that's what makes it post-modern. ;-)


Mike Compton

 2006/8/8 16:43Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504

 Re: Att.: Bartle


I reread my post - the one you reacted to. I am still at a loss to know why you got so easily upset at my post or for that matter anyone elses' posts.

You took a dig at my age and the area I live in which is Mississippi. I would like to respond to that.

If you will live long enough someday you will get to be as old as I am. When I speak I speak what the Word says and how life has proven it to be true. You gain this insight by living a long time which is called experience.

I live in Mississippi because that is where the LORD has placed me. By birth and heritage I am a Hoosier!!!! Living in the south has great advantages. The southerners have a fantastic sense of humor - they have the ability to laugh at themselves which you will not find common in the north, least of all among the urbanites!

Now from my observation I think we southerners (Yes, I know Krispy, my grandparents were not born in the south so that would disqualitfy me as a southerner but the others do not know that!) could teach the Yankees (as people from from the north are called) a few things, so why do you not come down here to Mississippi and let us show you? Would you know males - white and black - in my community will open doors for me when we approach a door in a building? And they will say "madam" and "sir" when addressing an older person? Sir, people are polite here and that is what we are used to. Rudeness will get you nowhere.

Yes, I live in the south and am pleased with its social culture of gentleness - something which people in the north could rightly benefit from.


PS: If you respond to this, I would like you to know I will not respond for at least a week: we plan to go, Lord Willing, on vacation tomorrow morning and be gone for some time. Tonight we are hosting two birthday parties: one for my 47 YO 'baby' brother and the other for our 2 YO grandson!
God bless.

Sandra Miller

 2006/8/9 12:53Profile

 Re: ginnyrose

Please forgive me if you misconstrued my response, I wasn't upset, nor would I EVER take a "dig" at someone's age or geographical location.

the only reason I referenced them is this:


Paul on Mars Hill.

Paul on Mars Hill didnt quote Scripture, he quoted the same Greek philosphers that those folks were talking about, he spoke to them, not at them.

He was culturally relevant to them, much in the same way, I as a missionary in America, speaking to a northern urban post modern demographic, should be relevant to them. Paul modeled it for me.

I would love to go to a tent meeting...I would love it. But if I set up a tent here, in Chicago, in this neighborhood, and started to say, "The Bible says....". People wouldn't care.
If I started talking about hell and eternal sepeartion from God, they wouldn't care, they don't believe in the Bible, they don't even believe in hell.

Now if I set up a tent in the south, and we had some Spirit filled preachers preaching the Gospel with Holy Ghost fire, then you'd see a filled tent...maybe a 30 by 30 tent. (lol)

Up here, if I rent a store front, and call it a "Prayer Room", and put a sign up asking folks if they want to experience God, and casual passersby see believers yielded up in prayer, with candles and rugs, informal, and welcoming, you will draw this people, you will draw the lost who are hungry.

But you won't get them near a traditional church, they regard a traditional church as hypocrisy, for whatever reasons. I won't go into their thinking, as to their reluctance to enjoy what Miss Markells terms as "old-fashioned religion". It was "old-fashioned religion" that drove them away.

and its my conviction that we have to think of ourselves as missionaries IN AMERICA, and be relevant to such a populace.

I didn't say compromised, I said relevant.

Paul on Mars Hill.

Forgive me for any untoward, ungentlemanly message you read into any prior posts, I didnt mean it that way.
May the Lord bless you is my prayer.

 2006/8/9 14:31

 Re: Emergent Church

Not sure now who said this,

what "old time religion" is, I don't know

but I picked it up with my mouse to comment: I believe it is being misused when Christians think they are alluding to a more fundamental style of faith and its outworking.

Really, the 'old time religion' is idolatry - anything which is animated by other spirits or orchestrated by Satan, despite his diminished power.

While this definition may not go down well with all of you, it is more meaningful than hijacking it to mean any 'old school' of any faith, including Christianity.

I always think we have to be careful with words, because general phrases, however usefully they appeal in the moment, often have their meanings limited by the experience of the hearers.

An easy example of how culture changes the meaning of a common phrase, is the different ways a 'cup' of tea can be made, from the use of a mug or a teapot to a pan and adding the milk to the water before it has boiled..... See what I mean?

 2006/8/10 7:29

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


Think we often just like labels period, at least as it means every item must have one. It's easier to coral everything and stick a target on it.

Really, the 'old time religion' is idolatry - anything which is animated by other spirits or orchestrated by Satan, despite his diminished power.

That is really saying the same thing isn't it? As you go on ... It is the meaning poured into the words that causes all the confusion. If this here on SermonIndex is construed as "Old time religion" I am all for it. "Old path's" doesn't necessarily mean anything more than well compacted ground once travelled. It's not 'old' really at all, only by disuse and being left forgotten.

Mike Balog

 2006/8/10 10:08Profile

Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania


When the meaning of old time religion is repentance, travailing prayer for others, honoring God with our lives, a moving of the Holy Spirit in our lives, etc. bring it on. This is the Old Paths we want to be on. However, when the meaning of old time religion becomes just some kind of form that is from the past, forget it.

Gary Eckenroth

 2006/8/10 12:42Profile

 Re: Emergent Church

Hi MikeB,
Imho, 'old path[u]s[/u]' is a scriptural concept, and the the plural is correct in the Old Testament; also it is qualified by 'good way' and 'rest for your souls'.

(KJV)Jeremiah 6:16
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where [is] the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk [therein].

'Old time religion' - again only my opinion - does have a precedent for meaning animist faiths (although I haven't been able to remember or find where I read that, sorry), and has no basis in scirpture.

James' definition of ' pure religion' should clarify to us, also, that 'old time religion' didn't do those things....

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [u]and[/u] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 2006/8/11 8:48

 Re: Emergent Church

Ho bartle,

Up here, if I rent a store front, and call it a "Prayer Room", and put a sign up asking folks if they want to experience God, and casual passersby see believers yielded up in prayer, with candles and rugs, informal, and welcoming, you will draw this people, you will draw the lost who are hungry.

But you won't get them near a traditional church, they regard a traditional church as hypocrisy, for whatever reasons.

There is only one thing bothering me about this idea, which I will come to. But I don't want to sound negative. I hear what you're saying - that an unconventional looking assembly of Christians would [i]attract[/i] some unbelievers, or those who need to strengthen their relationship with God.....

First, let me say, in England, people would only join in something like this if they could sit quietly like in (what I imagine) a Quaker meeting is like, praying silently - especially if they were on public view..... And I think that might be because of Jesus' parable here:

Luke 18
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

My concern is, that there cannot be any exhibitionism in a Christian (gathering), and it would be difficult to guard against the appearance of it.

And this:

Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, [b]They have their reward[/b].

I [i]don't[/i] want to sound like a wet blanket, but I do - nor legalistic - so I wonder how one creates the kind of environment and opportunity you desire without falling foul of the above verses, in a [u]public[/u] place rather than the greater privacy of a domicile, where each person is individually invited by someone?

 2006/8/11 9:45

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