| Re: KDAY|
Sorry if I am getting off topic. I am the new guy on the block, so that is my excuse
no problems, and these "catholic" Christians love Jesus, so what does one do?
One thing is to know when to keep quiet, like James said the tongue can set fires. A lot of times, most times, its the Holy Ghost that does the Talking. We mess things up. Sometimes when we open our mouths and give our "opinions" or "the truth"....I didnt say The Truth. God the Holy Ghost will be doing a Work on a person, and some well-intentioned, yet imprudent follower will open their mouths and mess things up.
Notice the way Paul handled himself on Mars Hill. No one can ever say Paul was soft and compromised, yet you don't read of him stomping into Mars Hill with an amp system shrieking "REPENT YOU FILTHY PERVERTS!!"
Those Greek philosphers would have just tuned him out, regarded Paul as an irelevant abberation, not worthy of a sober low key discussion on divine matters. Did you ever notice thats how God the Holy Spirit speaks to one, sober and low key.
would to God that believers would emulate Paul's ministry, including me, especially me!!
| 2006/8/7 19:37|
| Re: music in the RC|
Quote: I'd feel more comfortable with the word godly or decent rather than sacred. There is a reason for that: For centuries the church has tried to nail down a description of what would pass as sacred by enforcing all kinds of rules and restrictions. And maybe really, what became sacred really became an idolatrous icon in the church. It's no different today.
nothing is sacred anymore
The bible has no rules about musical style. It is people who make rules. I say, when one is humble, respects the people, and has a humble appreciation for musical quality, you will likely get decent music in church.
Quote: I certainly know what you are saying, yet I might add that a desire for sacredness may really be a craving for a respectable form of godliness that is without the power of God. Thats essentially what the Pope is striving for, though I do appreciate his love for quality music in the church. I think Krispy makes the point perfectly:
I think that worship services have lost their sacredness
so the Pope is concerned about worldliness... big deal. So are the nutty Islamic extremeists about their religion. So are the Mormons. So are the JW's.
Krispy, I believe you are right: Most religions want to maintain their distinction and be set apart from the world. Really thats how they maintain their identity and not get washed away. This hits close to home, doesn't it?
Quote: But Rahman, is this really the kind of repentance that leads to Life?
See i'm thinking the point of the thread is about the Catholic Church's "repentance", "turn around", from attempting to be relevant to our modern world
one of my employees, is a God fearing born again follower of Jesus,..(in the RCC)
... a light in the darkness ... in the world but not of the world - in the RCC, but not of the RCC. Of course that should go for any of us in our religious affiliation. We are in the church; but hopefully, we are OF the Church. (Capitol C)
| 2006/8/7 21:35||Profile|
| Re: The Pope Calls for an End to Popular Music in Church|
Sis D you (partially) quoted me where i said;
"See i'm thinking the point of the thread is about the Catholic Church's "repentance", "turn around", from attempting to be relevant to our modern world"
Then you said;
"But Rahman, is this really the kind of repentance that leads to Life?"
YIKES! ... Back to my point about anything but seeing "the point" ... Not angry here, but i just really need to know, Sis D, anyone, am i not writing clearly? ... Please tell me what i could have said to make it any plainer than the rest of my post which says ...
"by allowing this popular influenced music in the first place, and not whether the RCC or the pope is right in anything else"
Help us Jesus! ... But once again isn't the point of the posting of this thread about "pop music" and not the pope or the RCC? ...
Again i restate ...
"i'm thinking that the main point of the thread being posted is that if the pope/RC can see where it was a mistake to "compromise" in music, then why can't we as the Body of Christ see where we've made similar compromise"
... AND NOT ABOUT THE POPE OR THE RCC BEING RIGHT OR WRONG OR IF THIS KIND OF REPENTANCE LEADS TO LIFE WITHIN IT'S STRUCTURE!!!
Yes i've shouted, forgive me, but man i feel like i'm posting to a wall here ... ISN'T THE POINT ABOUT MUSIC - IF NOT THEN PLEASE WILL SOMEONE LET ME KNOW!
Seems to me that much of this thread has turned into a diatribe of what we don't like, which is the main reason why much of His Body is in the deplorable state we're in because the focus is supposed to be on what He doesn't like ...
i can't speak as well about what has happened to Christian Music amongst my brothers and sisters who happen to be white, but i can tell you about black new so called Gospel music ... IT PRETTY MUCH REEKS OF COMMERCIALISM AND THE WORLD!!! ... And i wish God would raise up some preacher(s), any preacher(s) whom He could use to turn back the hands of time on much of the modern crapola that's passing for Gospel music in much of the American African church ...
First off as i said before a bunch of it comes from it's penning to crossover into the R&B/Rap/Pop market ... To me if it's designed with the intent to sell secularly that's a compromise to praising God in the first place ... Back in the day Mahalia Jackson didn't sell out like that, she woudn't even concider singing secular music ... When she was asked why, she said that God gave her her voice to sing praises to Him and that's what she intended to do ... He supplied her needs (very well i might add) in doing it, but so many of todays so called Gospel singers are going after their wants - They want Holy Ghost bling-bling, which is an oxymoron in itself, thereby reducing anyone whose trying to play both ends from the middle just a plain spiritual moron - period!
i've sat in church services, grieved to the core, and watched young folk be allowed to do so called Christian rap while they bust their demonically inspired worldly movements supposedly to the glory of God ... i also know the difference between a rousing Gospel praise song, and one inspired by the likes of George Clinton and the Parlament Funkedelic or MC Hammer ... That's what we got a lot of in so called black Gospel music today, and if anyone is afraid to stand flat footed and say this in your church, our feels that a church leader don't have the right to set precedent over the music, then i'll shout it to the rafters here: IT'S WRONG, AND SO ARE YOU! ...
God Himself is the one who put preachers over their assignments and if such a man has sought our Lord and feels led of Holy Ghost to set music codes then God bless him, and if we don't like it we can always go and find a more liberal church ... When i got saved 27 years ago we just didn't sing any ole thing, and we certainly weren't allowed (by the preacher and church rules) to come to church dressed any ole kind of way ... And please before anyone goes off point about some not having the whatever to come to church presentable, #1 i'm not talking about the poorest of the poor (at my church clothing is provided to the poorest of the poor), i'm talking about most folk and particularly the youth ... Within 25 years i now sit and see many young black men come to church "thugged out" and many young black women in stuff so tight, low and/or short that it's just mind blowing to me ... When i first got saved the pastors and churches i first started out in would not ALLOW such disrespect in the house of God, but now we've become so relevant, so relaxed, so purpose driven for quantity in numbers for quantity of dollars, until as far as i'm concerned, and as far as i believe our Lord has me to shout, WE'RE JUST PLAIN SOLD OUT!
One thing for sure is i believe that the reason we miss "the point" is because as soon as something comes across as a "can't" or "don't" to we modern day, free thinking, way over stepping Pauls meaning of liberty type saints, we instantly start to espousing on what we think, when the main "point" should become "well what does God think" and if we kept our faces in His Word we wouldn't have to guess ... He said, "Be ye Holy as i am Holy" and we have a whole Book to tell us what He thinks/likes and what He don't ... Bottom line is if we'd keep our faces in His Word we wouldn't even need a leader to tell us ... But the problem is that most of us do need a leader like Israel of old because we don't have what it takes to serve the invisible, let alone discern by ourselves, without one, and now even so many of the leaders have fallen down on their responsibility TO DISCERN & LEAD! ...
i for one travail for the (please Jesus) soon coming day when our Lord will do whatever it's gonna take for Him to shake us out of "ourselves" back into our first love devotion and first work service to Himself ...
COME QUICKLY CORRECTION & REVIVAL!!! ... Amen
| 2006/8/8 13:37||Profile|
Hi, Rahman, my friend, It appears that mental meanderings have caused you a wee bit of distress. (I easily get quite divergent.)
I reread the initial post this time more from the perspective of the music itself:
("Pope demands end to crappy church music")
Ohhh, If only I could be pope-for-a-day in our Protestant churches and do that, but I cant see how that would that make good musicians out of mediocre ones. Its not just a case of changing style but changing people.
The Vatican has retreated from the 60s liturgical reforms when modern musical expression was stipulated in order to be relevant and keep members. But they went overboard and censured anything old. Obviously the reforms backfired. People ended up copying the world. Now, I would call that voluntary slavery to the world. So, many parishioners shifted from one kind of ruler to another. And now the pendulum gets pulled back again.
The Popes edict:
"It is possible to modernise holy music, but it should not happen outside the traditional path of Gregorian chants or sacred polyphonic choral music."
This restriction seems like an over-reaction! There are a lot of fabulous sacred styles available between chant and contemporary that is far from crappy as someone pointed out:
He pointed out the critical and popular success of such contemporary composers
whose music seeks to express traditional Christian spirituality in a modern classical idiom.
My main objection to the edict is the fact that it does not allow for a freedom of musical expression. It would be intensely frustrating for any trained musician, including the rest of the folk. Composers have struggled with religious restrictions like this for years (from protestants too), and thankfully many just ignored orders and wrote what was in their heart. And so now we have a great deal of fabulous music that has stood the test of time.
You know when it comes to music, pop and crappy are not automatically the same thing. Wouldnt you agree?
| 2006/8/8 16:01||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
This just came across the front page via the Random Article, seemed timely ...
[i]Neither the word adoration nor any of its forms is found in our familiar King James Bible, but the idea is there in full bloom. The great Bible saints were, above all, enraptured lovers of God. The psalms celebrate the love which David (and a few others) felt for the person of God. As suggested above, Paul admitted that the love of God was in his breast a kind of madness: For whether we be beside ourselves, it is of God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us (2 Cor. 5:13-14). In Weymouth's translation the passage reads, For the love of Christ overmasters us. The idea appears to be that Paul's love for Christ carried him beyond himself and made him do extravagant things which to a mind untouched with the delights of such love might seem quite irrational. Perhaps the most serious charge that can be brought against modern Christians is that we are not sufficiently in love with Christ. The Christ of Fundamentalism is strong but hardly beautiful. It is rarely that we find anyone aglow with personal love for Christ. I trust it is not uncharitable to say that in my opinion a great deal of praise in conservative circles is perfunctory and forced, where it is not downright insincere.[/i]
| 2006/8/8 16:24||Profile|
It's interesting... previous to becoming the new Pope (I believe the official title is Holy Head Honcho) of the Roman Catholic Church, Benedict was basically in charge of the doctrinal side of things. Believe it or not, he was in charge of what used to be called the Inquisition... but they have softened up the name now because of the bad memories it drudges up for folks.
So why should we be surprised that he is flexing a little muscle over the local churches?
Remember, the local churches see him as God in the flesh on this earth. Of course they are not going to disobey.
Ah, sweet liberty in Christ. It's nice not to belong to any religion. Isnt the book of Galations one of the best books in the Bible? Sweet freedom.
| 2006/8/8 16:26|
| Re: The Pope Calls for an End to Popular Music in Church|
Sis D you wrote;
"Hi, Rahman, my friend, It appears that mental meanderings have caused you a wee bit of distress. (I easily get quite divergent.) .. I reread the initial post this time more from the perspective of the music itself:"
Ahhhhhhh ... sweet breakthrough :-P ...
You know sis when i was in the world and couldn't quite get my point across i'd throw a rod (usually with a whole lot of foul language) and voila - i'd get instant attention ... i used to always wonder why that had to be so ... Anyhow i'm glad to be restrained by Holy Spirit enuf now to still be able throw a slight rod, but with no anger and cussin ...
i think you hit on something in your statement about easily getting quite divergent, i think that's one of the bad things that has happened to us saints in the body ... God's pointed, pretty precise in His ways and thoughts, and we've become divergent in ours - scattered i'd say, like lost sheep gone astray ... Praise Him that we have His promise that He'll come look for us ...
"Ohhh, If only I could be pope-for-a-day in our Protestant churches and do that, but I cant see how that would that make good musicians out of mediocre ones. Its not just a case of changing style but changing people."
Praise God that at least in Protestantism we don't have to be subjected to that degree of Nicolaitinism, but what you said hit upon one of my points ... Where are the preacher/pastors of God who have the power bestowed on them as His annointed to change things within the confines of the segment of Christ flock that He's given them ...
You said "it's not just a case of changing style but changing people" ... i somewhat disagree in that i believe if pastors would submit themselves, their ministerial staffs, and then their congregations back as prescribed in Joel chapter 2 that return to a seeking of a more holy style of living and worshipping would change the people ... Some to repentance and a closer walk with Him, and others to revulsion and a walk right out the door ... Especially in Christ it's quality that He's interested in (as in the lesson of Gideon) and not quantity as so many preachers have come to seek ...
OK i'm done, i believe the point about the music has been gotten across ... :-D ...
Blessings in Christ Jesus one and all!
| 2006/8/8 18:02||Profile|
The actual official title of the pope is
The Holy Head Honcho in the post hole digger hat.
Thought you aught to know
| 2006/8/8 20:37||Profile|
| Re: more thoughts|
God's pointed, pretty precise in His ways and thoughts, and we've become divergent in ours - scattered i'd say, like lost sheep gone astray .
Hi, Rahman, Really I was using the word divergent to explain how I can make one thought go in many different directions which go in yet different directions. I didnt mean straying off the straight and narrow. See there, you took a word I used, and diverged into a yet different direction. Oh the fun we have with words.
And now.. back to the topic of music
.. boy, that can sure get divergent!
it's quality that He's interested in
and not quantity
If the Pope had appealed for quality than I could have accepted his edict more readily, but he also commanded a return to music that would be very difficult to resurrect in this day and age. I sure couldnt expect it from my church. I doubt that very few even know what choral polyphonic music is let alone be able to perform it on a Sunday morning.
We live in a different world, where music has become something that you get when you click a button, not when you practise and perform an instrument or voice. So I think skills are being lost. And our worship leaders are not trained to teach these more refined styles. Also, our modern churches are not built with the acoustics that made those ancient styles so magnificent. The RC churches have a lot of similar cultural issues as the protestants. Perhaps the Pope is not aware of these nitty-grittys.... or maybe I'm not understanding his expectations....
... modernized chant?..... mmmmm I like the idea, though..... well, sometimes.
| 2006/8/8 21:54||Profile|
Sis D ...
It dawned on me last night that you'd posted this final question ...,
"You know when it comes to music, pop and crappy are not automatically the same thing. Wouldnt you agree?
... and i didn't address it ...
No i don't think that "pop" music from a technical standpoint has to be "crappy" ... There's some pop music that's finely crafted, orchestrated, with lyrics clean enough even a Christian could listen to without getting convicted ... There was a time when i used to think that saints who just shut down on any other type music than old hymns, old Gospel, and the few newer songs that uplift ones spirit, were just way over the top, seeing the devil in everything ... You know, as some say, "just to heaven bound to be of any earthly good" ... Now i've become the same way, tho i don't see the devil in everything, just anything that doesn't point ones attention to Christ ... So while say Celine Dion's style of "pop" music might fit comfortably with some Christians as entertainment, and i'm certainly not condemning anyone to hell if they listen for i myself like smooth jazz, what i am saying is that even smooth jazz because it doesn't point me to thoughts of Christ has even become suspect to me of being a more subtle tool of the devil ... As you know i'm a very black and white type thinker, not much room for gray areas: it's either inspired of/from God or of/from the devil ...
i'm a 50's guy who grew up during the Motown era, and once i used to compare the "pop" music i listened to to the "pop" music my kids liked in the 80's and thought how much more cleaner, and innocent, my era of music was compared to theirs ... By the time pop music got to the 2K's i was horrified then Holy Spirit hit me, moving me closer to the Light, and ripped the blinders from my spiritual eyes, so that when i went back and tried to listen to my 60's R&B i heard it in a whole different Light ... Know what i found? ... It wasn't innocent at all, but just another (then masked in sexual innuendo) stepping stone in satan's musical plan to bring American African "pop/R&B" music to the "crap of rap" it is today - a "pop" music that may be finely crafted, orchestrated, but now with such blatant filthy "lyrics" that'll melt most sensitive saints ears ...
So no, to me, from a technical stand point "pop" music doesn't have to be "crappy" - But also to me any music that comes into the Church alledging to uplift Christ and it sets my "discernment" alarm off to the contrary, i don't care how cleverly it's put together, it becomes crap to me ... Highly toxic and dangerous crap!
| 2006/8/9 11:57||Profile|