Brother Bartle, i support the nation of Israel more so than my own nation. I see that what is happening in the Middle East is prophecy coming true. However, i don't read anywhere in the Bible where a child of God (Jew or Gentile) is told to take up arms under the New Covenant. We must remeber what our Lord said in His sermon on the mount.
Matthew 5:38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
The prophecies that are unfolding before our eyes will be brought to pass by God. We can do nothing to stop them, or help them. Jesus said when we see such things happening "Take up arms!". No. He said "Look up, for your redemption draweth nigh."
God bless you dear brother. And God bless the Jewish people.
| 2006/7/23 8:14||Profile|
| Re: Paul West|
Why don't you read it, look in the mirror, and say what you just said to me, "Preach the Gospel brother."
Brother Bartle, as usual, you are getting emotional and turning this thread into a personal attack. Your words are mean-spirited and unfair. All I said was to preach the gospel, repeating what Jesus said! Why have you turned it back upon me...to imply that I'm a hypocrite? You don't even know me!
I said to let the heathen fight their own wars. I meant this in a general sense. I love the Jews, but if a Jew dies without Jesus he/she goes to hell just like anyone else. Admittedly, 'heathen' was not the best word-choice - Jews are not heathen, you are right. I rejoice that God will one day lift the veil and all of Israel will know Messiah! I believe this war will only facilitate this. Brother Bartle, I hate what's going on in the land where Yeshua walked, but I also realize that these things must happen in order to fulfill prophecy. And it's going to get far worse - whether you sacrifice your life tomorrow or not. Gog and Magog still need to invade Israel. Wilkerson prophesied that America will be destroyed - in one hour - by a nuclear assault from Russia. Not from the Islamo-fascist-radical-jihadi-abbadon worshippers. But I'm not worried, and neither should you be. If you really want to help your Jewish brethren, pray that their blinders be lifted so fewer of them will go to hell after they die in this up-coming war.
But if your intent is to rally Christians to take up AK-47's and slay the 'wicked jihadists' to help your poor Jewish brethren - well, brother - you are deceived. Contrary to what you've said, you [i]do not[/i] have a humble spirit; you are doing what zealous Peter tried to do in Gethsemane. Does the Holy Spirit exhort us to return evil for evil?
Brother, please, do not call your fellow Christian brothers and sisters here to kill with machine guns and bombs the radical Islamic jihadists who worship "abbadon." I am disturbed by this post.
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/7/23 8:47||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: WWIII|
It IS World War Three
Did God use the hitlerites to scourge us by burning 6 million in the ovens of Europe?
Are you [i]sure[/i] you want to presume that was the case?
The very problem with all this forecasting is in it's speculation.
will give to you what the Spirit has revealed to me, that in the coming days, America will suffer a grievous hideous attack on its shores, that will far eclipse the attack of 9/11.
That's vauge and not any different than the political pundints or news media educated guess. Have a great deal of problem with these sort of stipulations. What happens if things die down and settle out for a season? Do we hear the report's from our 'prophet's' ... "I was wrong"? It seems so rare I cannot even recall to mind a single instance of recanting, generally it is either forgotten, recapitulated or twisted into another version of something yet future.
Don't get the wrong idea though, I am not trying to make you into a prophet or your words prophecy, just to point out that great deal of these things are nothing more than newspaper theology. Every time something happens in Israel many Christians begin to lose their minds, and run off on flights of fancy to explain or forecast what is happeneing in "The Heavenlies" is being manifested on the earth. This is just not necessarily so.
Neither is this to turn a deaf eye to what is happening at the moment, the threats and verbiage, make that rhetoric from different fronts. There are a lot of things going on this earth that get little to no recoginition, atrocities attached to religious titles, for instance and for a different perspective; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10011&forum=48#77670]UGANDA ~ Deliver Us from Kony[/url]
Something else needing mention;
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
[b]Act 10:35 -
But in every nation[/b] ... - This is given as a reason for what Peter had just said, that God was no respecter of persons. The sense is, that he now perceived that the favors of God were not confined to the Jew, but might be extended to all others on the same principle. The remarkable circumstances here - the vision to him, and to Cornelius, and the declaration that the alms of Cornelius were accepted - now convinced him that the favors of God were no longer to be confined to the Jewish people, but might be extended to all. This was what the vision was designed to teach, and to communicate this knowledge to the apostles was an important step in their work of spreading the gospel.
[b]In every nation[/b] - Among all people. Jews or Gentiles. Acceptance with God does not depend on the fact of being descended from Abraham, or of possessing external privileges, but on the state of the heart.
[b]He that feareth him[/b] - This is put for piety toward God in general. See notes on Act_9:31. It means that he who honors God and keeps His Law; he who is a true worshipper of God, according to the light and privileges which he has, is approved by him, as giving evidence that he is his friend.
[b]And worketh righteousness[/b] - Does what is right and just. This refers to his conduct toward man. He that discharges conscientiously his duty to his fellow-men, and evinces by his conduct that he is a righteous man. These two things comprehend the whole of religion, the sum of all the requirements of God - piety toward God, and justice toward people; and as Cornelius had showed these, he showed that, though a Gentile, he was actuated by true religion. We may observe here:
(1) That it is not said that Cornelius was accepted on accouter of his good works. Those works were simply an evidence of true piety in the heart; a proof that he feared and loved God, and not a meritorious ground of acceptance.
(2) he improved the light which he had.
(3) he embraced the Saviour when he was offered to him. This circumstance makes an essential difference between Cornelius and those who depend on their morality in Christian lands. They do not embrace the Lord Jesus, and they are, therefore, totally unlike the Roman centurion. His example should not be pled, therefore, by those who neglect the Saviour, for it furnishes no evidences that they will be accepted when they are totally unlike him.
[i]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.[/i]
| 2006/7/23 9:27||Profile|
as i see it there is no need for us to be to worried about this... jesus said these things must happend dont let your hearts be trobled... i belive everything that happends is according to gods plan...we might not understand everything, but i trust in gods plan... if you still have worries then read the bible...its quite clear how its all is going down... i know whos going to win anyway, and thats what matters... and all people who dont belive in him jesus christ...they are on the losing side....so since i feel there arent much time left our efforts and worries should be how we can get as many people over to the winning side, that should be our main consern, of course we should pray for israels saftey...but as i understand the word only a little part of the israeli people will be spared...
we are peacemakers as christians... we should never be for war no matter how evil a country may be...we should pray for our enemies... we must pray for muslims... we must pray for these young men and woman now in training for suicide bombs.... pray for that they might be saved so our lord can recive glory... we cant as christians go out and say Declare WAR!!! how can we win the world to christ by force? we must win them by love....
| 2006/7/23 12:39||Profile|
| Brother Paul West|
Forgive me if I seemed to be directing a personal attack at you, that was not my intent.
I also believe it was not your intent, to say
"as usual, You are getting emotional and turning this thread into a personal attack". "Your words are mean-spirited and unfair".
"as usual"? C'mon Paul, forgive me if this seemed as a personal attack, but if you're words "Preach the Gospel" were an exhortation, they didnt seem like that, and if I was mistaken, I ask forgiveness.
I read those words as an admonition, as a rebuke, and if that was your intent, you know not my walk, I preach the Gospel everyday, and sometimes I use words when i do this, because I work and live in a world where Jesus is a total irrelvancy. I carry the Body of Christ within me and those around me KNOW it, and they watch, closely, to see if this Grace is a REAL thing and NOT just a bunch of words. I show in deed, and in my heart that I love them and I pray for them, and that they are precious to me. In this secular work group I am the leader, and they see me, reading the Word, AND living it, and they see me at times on my knees in prayer, and no one scoffs or laughs, they watch.
I have a homosexual who works for me and was so terrified that i would fire him, he came up to me and confessed, "I'm gay, I wanted you to know that. I said, "come here"...he did, and i hugged him and said "I love you like Christ loved you, and there is no condition on this love...I want you to know that". Now the Holy Spirit is dealing with this man, because he opens up and tells me his struggles, his torment and it will be the Holy Ghost that will reveal ALL to him, not me. If I got up in his face, or I fired him, or told him turn or you burn in hell, this will drive him from Christ possibly forever. I have many in my group who were raised Catholic, and are mad at the Lord, and I tell them, you knew me before, do you see the change?...yes, they say, and I tell them, religion kills, Jesus saves.
They watch and they listen, so closely, and its a tremendous burden. I don't say that to lift myself up, but when i perceive your words as a admonition, you might understand why I wrote to you what I did.
in cyber discussion the "tenor" of words can be misconstrued. for instance, you wrote this sentence:
But if your intent is to rally Christians to take up AK-47's and slay the 'wicked jihadists' to help your poor Jewish brethren - well, brother - you are deceived.
I didnt like the tenor of "my poor Jewish brethern"...and for me to say I don't like the tenor of that, is not me being mean-spirited, I'm just telling you that the tenor of that comes across as condescending. With the grace of God, the Israeli defense Forces have things well in hand. My intent was NOT to "rally" Christians to take up "AK-47"s (btw....our U.S. military uses M-16's, and Spec Forces use MP-5's)
My intent on the post was to discuss what I feel is a looming war against the State of israel against those who seek its destruction.....HizboAllah's mission statements clearly spells that out, and these jihadists are indeed wicked, and intent on murdering Jews, AND I might add the nation that they call the 'great satan', the United States of America is also on their hit list.
A just war is a war of national survival, and Jesus Himself said to the disciples, all who were Jews, "...and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one". We now find ourselves in a war of national survival, both Israel and the U.S.
you say my words are mean spirited, yet you say I'm "decieved", and "that I dont have a humble spirit". Peter was trying to prevent Jesus from fulfilling what He came to earth to do, to be the atoning sacrifice that brought all the nations under His Blood.
If someone is trying to kill your family or your nation in the name of a god, and you defend those who you are tasked to protect, this is not returning evil for evil, this is what is known as a just war. I won't go to where you are going and call you deceived, I just disagree.
I'll say this again, my heart is heavy because I know that Israel is under grave threat, but misunderstand me not, Israel with the help of Yahweh who has proceeded their army these past sixty years in the face of overwhelming odds and numbers will once again defeat the jihadists.
But something new has entered the picture, they have also attacked America on 9/11, and fully intend to keep attacking us. Only the Grace of God will prevent further, more murerous attacks
Each American must do what he feels he or she must God, Bless God that we have a nation where one has the freedom to conscientously object to take up arms in defense of country.
and forgive me if you believe that I implied you were a hypocrite, that was not my intent or meaning.
"Emotional"? If my heart being heavy at the current events means that I am emotional, I plead guilty as charged.
But a personal attack upon you? not guilty, and I ask your forgiveness if you percieved it as such.
| 2006/7/23 13:33|
| Re: Brother Paul West|
No offense taken, brother! You are right about the "tenor" on these things. My exhortation to preach the gospel was simply a brotherly reminder of our real purpose here on earth. The weapons God has given us are spiritual - not carnal guns and explosive devices.
And, yes, you are decieved (and anyone else who claims to walk under the banner of the cross) if you think Christ has empowered Christians to fight the enemy with more bullets and bloodshed (I'm current military, btw, 10 years US Army. Have you ever served?). AK-47's and AK-74's and I.E.D. roadside bombs are what the enemy uses; I spoke in terms of returning evil for evil.
I understand your heart, brother. But God's people are to be peculiar, set apart from the world. We don't do things the United States Department of Defense way. I'm sorry to have had you misunderstand my words; that's all I was trying to say. I think you might read too much into my words and look for disparaging insinuations. I assure you I write this with love and not sarcasm. Again, if you could hear my voice, you would detect my earnesty as one brother in Christ addressing another.
You told me to go look at myself in the mirror. By saying this, you immediately swung the conversation into the personal. You've done this before to me and to others on different threads. A pattern is evolving. That's all I was pointing out. Nobody wants to listen when they feel like they're being put down with petty insults.
I want to clear all this up! This is ridiculous, and it grieves the Spirit of God.
I make peace with you in Jesus' Name, and ask that you forgive anything I wrote that may have come off as a personal insult.
Blessings over you in the name of Yeshua!
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/7/23 14:43||Profile|
| Re: This IS WW3|
In the other thread on whether this is WW3 or not, you mentioned the Vine and I asked you to expound a little further - which I think you have done here - perhaps inadvertently - when you said
Quote:May I point out, gently, that this is not the precise meaning of either John 15 or Romans 9, in which first, the Lord Jesus is the Vine and His - our - Father, the husbandman who prunes and grafts. Yes, the first members of the Church were Jewish by natural birth, but it is the circumcision of all our hearts which makes both natural Jews and natural Gentiles 'Jews' inwardly, which I believe you understand.
The nation of Israel is hardly "heathen", they are God's chosen people, and you who have been grafted into this Vine thru the atoning Blood of Messiah
I'm not sure from what you've said, if you 'see' this, the way I do from scripture, that ALL of us - Jews and Gentiles - were [u]cut off[/u] from God by sin, and we are now grafted into [b]Him[/b] by faith as you say (of Abrahamic example), [i]becoming[/i] His chosen people.... Ephesians 1:4 - 'accepted in the Beloved' .... completely equal with one another through the cross, by which [i]all flesh[/i] is crucified, and us to the world.
The thesis in Romans 9 in which Paul longs for unsaved Jews to discover the Messiah and their right to be adopted into sonship of the Father, with those who already believe - that is, with those who are already grafted into the Vine - keeps these points very clear.
On a separate point, a while back, someone mentioned to me that Deuteronomy was a very prophetic book, just before I was about to read it again. And I found several things there which surprised me, in confirmation of this. I wonder if anyone has ever suggested this verse was fulfilled by the holocaust?
[They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction:
I don't ask to be insensitive to the huge trauma this caused to many, many people, but simply to remind us all that God has planned, and often revealed His heart through the prophets, and often has not received the response He would desire from any of us, not just from Jews.
As we seek His heart for our individual responses to what is going on in the world stage with regard to Israel, may we allow ourselves to be drawn out in prayer as the Spirit leads. And may we genuinely 'do' what He gives us to do or pray or follow after, knowing that our contribution, no matter how tiny, may be a vital piece in someone else's life-jigsaw.
| 2006/7/23 15:28|
| And to you too Paul West|
all love to you in the Name of Messiah.
I served in the Navy, stationed not far from the DMZ in Korea, after my service I was going to aliyah to Israel, but one of the reasons I didnt go was that I didnt want to HAVE to kill Arabs because naturally I would have served in the INF.
Christ did NOT "empower" Christians to kill, but hear me, the day of Jews just lining up to be slaughtered by those thirst for their blood are over. That time died when 700 Jewish fighters in the ghetto of Warsaw held off 15,000 elite Waffen SS troops for well over a month.
That is when the IDF was born, in the hell of the Warsaw Ghetto.
This is a just war, it is a war of national survival, for both Israel and the U.S.
Brother, I'm not flagwaving, just stating the grim, grievous tragic facts.
This is war.
My next duty post overseas will be in North Korea with a Korean langauge Bible in my hand, only God knows when that day will come.
God bless you is my prayer.
| 2006/7/23 15:36|
| Re: And to you too Paul West|
May God bless all you put your hands to do. May Jesus' most Holy Name be exalted through your sacrifice and burden. May God grant the answer to this prayer in your lifetime: that you may see Christianity flourish in N Korea and millions won to Jesus. I bless you, my dear brother.
With Christian love in our Lord Jesus Christ,
Paul Frederick West
| 2006/7/23 15:54||Profile|
| Re: The Kingdom of Heaven, Christian Pacifism and Divine Providence|
I would like to say some things about the issue of Christian Pacisfism.
I do recognise the tension within the tender heart of a Christian that thoughts of warfare stirr within us. At the same time I'm aware that the Christian encounters many [i]hard sayings[/i] in the teachings of Christ and even some [i]shocking[/i] actions while beholding the works of God.
In trying to understand all of this I wonder if we are not left with an aspect of life in this fallen world which ultimatley can only be explained and applied to our lives in any practicle sense by seeing it through the lense of Divine Providence. I wonder if there is not room in our consideration of the righteousness of Pacifisim or that of an active Patriotisim for circumstances and events over which God must ultimately be superintending in the outworking of His plan for humanity, saved and unsaved, those under His Governemnt through covenant and those under His government through men.
It so happens, that after failing, for whatever reason, in attempting to comment on this issue, quite [i]by accident[/i] I happened across an article here at SI while looking for something completely different, which, though not speaking in any direct sense to this issue, will perhaps speak very eloquently in its descriptions of events from America's bloody civil war.
I would like to invite you all to read this article concerning revival during the American Civil War
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=2556]The Revival in the Confederate Army[/url]
Like the tree which Moses cast into the waters at Marah, I see in this article how Calvary's Tree has made even the bitter waters of war, sweet for many - painfull though it must have been.
Bless you all in Christ.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2006/7/23 16:25||Profile|