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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374

 Re:Obstacles Should be Removed ...

PaulWest you wrote;
"Brother, you are on the verge of great shame and humiliation - and yet you stil find it in you to laugh. I am not writing this to scoff, but with wonder and sadness. How is it that something like this can be taken so lightly, so jocularly? "

---Hmmmm ... when i posted the "laughing face" i actually started to post the "smiley face" instead, either way i certainly didn't mean for it to come across as you've taken it, but did so in trying to convey to bro Mike a spirit that i'm not advesarial, or in any way have any animosity about his posts in this regard ... It was actually directed at him, and no others in that i know my weird faith has grieved him in a way i think far supassed to others ... So i withdraw the comment and the "laughing" icon, as "lightly" and "jocularlity" was not my intent ...

As to your comment about my being "on the verge of great shame and humiliation" i can understand your perception, but that's certainly not how i see it, or will react to it (as still the year is not past) because "self" is not at the core (and if it is then i'm still unaware of it and perhaps God might show me how and where) ... Scripture says "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" and God knows that all that i've said and done has been out of faith and love of Him, it may be yet proven to be misguide but it will never to be proven to be malicious, and if i have to answer for such a delusion before His throne my answer to Him will be, "Yes Lord i was really way afar afield on that one, but it wasn't because i didn't believe it was You" ...

Again what i will be feeling in being proven wrong is great sorrow in having attached God's name to what will then be obviously again what Ron Bailey will have so rightly called my "nonesense", at which time i will be doing a 1John 1:9 in all earnesty before Him about an "unrighteousness" scripture assures me He will forgive in my confessing it as sin ... Then those few folk whom i know personally whose lives i'd have caused unnecessary grief to ... The next thing will be an open post of apology and the asking of SI Forum members forgiveness in my folly, which would be done on 1/2/08 ... And then to my current pastor for meddling into his affairs via false words ... Perhaps it may cause some even further consternation that i'll not be feeling what you've suggested, but will in fact be feeling something of which i've not felt in quite some time - FREE ...

i'd written a bit further here but my computer crashed and this is all that remained so i suppose is all that is necessary ---

 2007/12/31 12:01Profile

Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: listening to a pastor

Thank God, that God gave some... pastors with a pastor's heart.

Mike B. quote: There are some precious and forever treasured memories that came forth from the recent Revival Conference this past October in Canton, Ohio.

Brother Mike I confess that reading those tender remarks resonate the whole experience of the Revival Conference for me…. Seeing and feeling the sincerity of so many of these brothers and sisters in the Lord that totally transcended the non-essential.

I am not a baby boy in the Lord anymore myself, but the scholarship, the sincerity and the new insights that were brought to the table the day Brother Ron spoke regarding the man after God’s own heart and the deep tragedy of his sin, brought an almost constant stream of tears to my eyes that day and was one of the highlights of the meeting. It is amazing how quickly sometimes we can jump to conclusions and be so completely wrong. I had spoken to those who came with me regarding those whose messages I had downloaded that were going to be the speakers and had categorized those “must hear” and those whom, if we had to miss, we will miss this one, and those in the middle. I have to confess that I had put Brother Ron’s name in the middle. I suppose if some were to hear me on tape I would be put on the “miss” list… but there is that vast difference sometimes between what is conveyed through spoken words that fails to convey the sincerity, the brokenness, the compassion and the passion that is so clearly seen in the countenance. I regret that I did not come out of my shell and introduce myself to some of these brothers while I was there, with the exception of Brother Currin... but be that as it may, I felt the fellowship from the pew.

The difference that has already been stated on this thread between maturity and the pride that can so easily come from one that is a novice in suffering “for the Lord” and confuses “suffering”, as Peter said because of being buffeted for faults for persecution and trials.

So much that can be learned by listening… so little by being puffed up rather than mourning.


Clint Thornton

 2007/12/31 12:09Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK


Prophetic Credentials

A challenge to would be Prophets

Hosea had to marry a whore; Jeremiah couldn't marry at all!

God chooses His prophets, God prepares His prophets, God sends His prophets.

By the time He gets around to the sending part, those prophets usually find any reluctance overcome by divine compulsion. The message has become their own and they would not silence it if they could.

The life of a prophet reflects the particular message God has given him. One of the reasons for this is that his life is brought into subjection to and molded by that message. One of the practical applications of this is that no prophet of God will allow anything in his life, whether good or evil, that will detract from his effective communication of his message.

So you think or know God has given you a message to your peers or to one of the other generations about you?

A message about You?

Then let the message and the Spirit that gave it burn in you with enough heat to consume all things in your life that would either combat or frustrate the delivery of that message.

A Prophet does not just give out words of prophecy he is the messsage.

Hope this helps you understand excatly what are the credentials of a Prophet.

Colin Murray

 2007/12/31 14:45Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


David (Psalm1)

I appreciate your response brother. I think sometimes our individual vocabularies gets us into more controversy then our actual meanings. Still I think it's important to iron out our differences as much as possible, even if these differences are only in terminology. I say this because some have adopted two different standards of what qualifies as inspiration in the church...a low standard for prophets and a high standard for scripture. I believe a low standard for prophets ultimately affects our esteem for scripture's reliableness...if not among us who are already convinced, then certainly among unbelievers or immature believers who are not yet convinced of the complete authority of scripture.

With this in mind I graciously hear and take to heart Dohzman's contrast between a New Testament prophet and an Old Testament Prophet. I happily acknowledge that the prophetic burden spans two different dispensations but cautiously point out that, in my experience, too much license can be taken with this loophole unless there are some stipulations. Sure enough, there is some room for discussion about the differences between a Old Testament prophet (such as the foreboding Jeremiah), and the practice of prophecy that Paul was encouraging in the Church. Yet, regardless of how we settle on these differences in the end, even a New Testament prophet must be able to stand up to objective testability in both word and character...not to avoid an Old Testament stoning (thankfully), but to avoid engendering honest skepticism among even open minded Christians...let alone the world! (Google Pat Robertson's public record of missed prophecies.)

Keeping all these things in perspective among friends, I want to say how glad I am that we are able to discuss and learn from each other respectfully. I appreciate Ironmans and Rhaman's willingness to stay in the conversation. I can appreciate the investment of faith that they have placed in their predictions, to which I do not wish to be trite or flippant in my questions or concerns. Our glad fellowship, communion, and kinship in Christ, transcends these discussions of whose a prophet and whose not. John the revelator was content to identify himself as 'the desciple that Jesus loved'. I believe I can safely practice affirming that identify in each of my brethren to the best of my ability, producing a good and encouraging effect in each member of our 'household of faith.'

Happy New Year,


Mike Compton

 2007/12/31 15:16Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


compton, I took the low road on purpose to hopefully sway any comdemnation off of bros ray and iron.
I merely wanted to point out that to "fail"
only puts these two in company with the greatest of the men of God.
One day I will stand before my king and my "rightness" wont be the basis of my homecomming.
This is all I wanted for these two{a beginning not an end}
Whats that about a glass of water to a prophet?


 2007/12/31 17:23Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

  if i've been the one in error...

Greetings in Jesus' Name dear saints by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i bow my knees and thank God for the Mercy and Grace shown us here. if none of this which i have believed over these last few yrs comes to pass i take some comfort in that i won't be continuing in that error into '08. i'm not sure what i would do but there would certainly be much agony. i'd be sure to apologize before God and before you all dear brethren and seek forgiveness from you and God knows thereafter. there wouldn't be anything left to say (i don't think anyway) except to admit gross error and seek forgiveness. bro Chris said and hoped that i'd not go into depression and i don't think i'm prone to that. however to think that i don't know God's Voice and/or how to listen to Him and obey may leave me depressed and a bit more guarded.i'd post little if anything i suppose, fearing stumbling anyone.if this burden has been self imposed, i don't know how i'd deal with anything in the future resembling would be a hard thing to come to grips with if it's proven i've been foolish all this time and caused God and you my brethren undue grief from the moderators on down, to my brethren at the church i attend...Romans 8:28 does say He works all things for the good but this would be a tough lesson...all the same i'd rather that than continue in error.

it's as if as bro R said we're between the red sea and pharaoh's army, can't go forward unless the sea is parted, can't go back unless the army is vanquished. if i've run from egypt prematurely or should have stayed there, either i'm going to drown in the sea or get hacked to pieces, perhaps i may be dragged back in bonds.

let God be proven True.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
p.s. i hope that whichever way this goes we can hold each part of the 5-fold ministry to God's Standard trying and proving whoever calls him/herself apostle, prophet, preacher, teacher, evangelist lest phonies abound.

Farai Bamu

 2007/12/31 17:24Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK

 Re: if i've been the one in error...

Post - Prophetic Credentials - A challenge to would be Prophets

Check out this posting.

Colin Murray

 2007/12/31 19:27Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: January 1, 2008

[i] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? [/i] Job 38:2

[i]But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

And you may say in your heart, "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?"

When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken.

The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him[/i] (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).


Prophecy with a disclaimer. Prophecy that deifies it's own definition. Prophecy without pain or repercussions, ramifications or accounting. Smooth things\Hard words, abstract reasonings, a crap shoot, a hunch, could be, may be, perhaps ...

Perhaps not.
A big deal?
Or not a big deal ...


Am unsure which is worse, a rushing to the aid before an incursion or an explanation of an outcome that may be just as bad as yet another failed prediction. What on earth is going on here? What in the world are we saying if all our reactions are pre planned including the results? Are we yet prophesying our prophesying? Counting our chickens before they are hatched? The great trouble here is we are not dealing with speculations nor predictions but utterances supposedly from [b]the[/b] God of all creation and we are to make light of it ... this is to add injury upon devastation and makes the whole matter one of playing games with the Lord of glory. How in the world can we not take this to heart?

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Read your bibles! Read what precedes even this statement. Read the correlations stated of the earth and heaven being shaken and the 'prophecies' right here of the very same thing and tell me this is some throw away matter ...

No. We will not have an accounting we will have a counseling session ...

This whole matter turns on a handful of words. Presumption. Equivocation. A lack of humility to listen to wisdom and appeal to scripture and a constant defending of the man, over and over again ...

Strange thing in this day, this cowardice to face up to truths, to be a man, to play the man, to repent to [i]God[/i] in all earnestness. Moreover the light treatment given all this prophecy business. No one to take notice of just how much our very faith is built on the foundation of [i]true[/i] prophecy. This is what we tell the world, that Jesus Christ [i]came[/i] as it was spoken of Him in Holy Writ. This is prophecy! And yet we would throw the whole thing on to a dung hill, yet another issue of the National Enquirer ready for the trash bin.


Had written what follows a number days ago and am almost hesitant to bother. This madness of the self-styled prophet needs to stop and it breaches well beyond these bonds here.

A backdrop and recommended reading to what is to follow;

Judge Not
[i]by James Jacob Prasch[/i]


From this basis I want to go forward. Will pass by the niceties very quickly here. There is as much trouble and presumption I am afraid and this has been mentioned many, many months ago about even dictating the how's and whys and results of all this failed prophetic business. [i]If[/i] "A" happens then I will follow along with "B". If "B" happens ... and so forth. There is as much problem in [i]dictating[/i] in this way as to the business of 'prophesying' itself. Let me say it from the bowels. Much rubbish!

This is not about love to a brother or lack thereof, It is, most emphatically getting down to brass tacks and sheer honesty, including accountability.

I want to drawn the attention to something I fear has been lost on what I cannot otherwise find a better way of putting it, that we have right now a Christianity that is a sham, and in many ways a complete falsification. Worse, there is now an acceptance level that will not hold each others feet to the fire. We fear not God but each other in some diabolical way that pit's our love for the Brethren at odds byway of 'offendedness'. It is made personal at the expense of [i]The Spirit of Truth[/i]. Take a long and sincere notice at what was established at the very inception of the Church in it's true apostolic foundations;

[i] ... a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?[/i] Act 5:1-3

What is the great and grand point of all of this and why exactly at this very inception of the Church? Is it not the requirement of [i]Honesty[/i]? So why bring this into all this? It is not to ascribe it to intention nor motivation of what has been 'prophesied', it [i]is[/i] to ascribe it to the realm of judgment and how we are to judge and [i]why[/i] we judge. If we cannot ever be after the root of this tremendous and noble faith in the Son of God we will forever be excusing our way around things that need to be brought to the light and dealt with, [i]honestly[/i].

There has been enough equivocation on even this subject matter that I am compelled to admit my own shortcomings for not being even more adamant about it. I do indeed want to use this as something both general and specific as to what has been now a year long process of back and forth and some who have tried very hard to reason and call this all into question, the whole of it.

This measure of truth and honesty cost both Ananias and Sapphira their very lives on the spot. The days of prophetic utterance had a similar qualification ... [i]the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, [b]that prophet shall die[/b][/i]. To borrow from Jacob Prasch above;

[i]"We do not stone them to death any more, but the sin is no less serious. They shall die if they do not repent.[/i]"

And equally there is a strong agreement as he follows;

"[i]We are not under the law, but under grace; but their "ministries" should be stoned. 1 Corinthians 14:29 does not say that we are entitled to diakrino prophets or prophecies, rather we are commanded to judge prophets and prophecies.

On this basis, Rodney Howard Browne is a false prophet. On this basis, John Wimber was a false prophet. On this basis, Rick Joyner is a false prophet. And on this basis, Paul Cain is a false prophet.

The founders of the Mormon cult and the Jehovah Witnesses were false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen. The Roman Catholic nun, Lucia, from Fatima, in Portugal, is a false prophet; she predicted things that failed to happen. John Wimber and Paul Cain and Rick Joyner (as well as John Kilpatrick, Michael Brown and Gerald Coates) are false prophets; they predicted things that failed to happen.[/i]"

And Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland and Pat Robertson ... Cindy Jacobs and Matt Sorger, Jill Austin, Chuck Pierce, the whole lot of them associated and promoted by Charisma magazine. Read Andrew Strom's book "[i]Why I left the Prophetic Movement[/i]" and all the names named there, along with all the shenanigans, throw them into the pot of accountability. These ministries ought to be shut down and boarded up.


"[i]they predicted things that failed to happen[/i]"

Key word there, "predicted". But it gets worse than even that, there are some who have gone beyond these bounds and stated and let me emphasize the word most stringently, [i]dictated[/i] that these things came from and [u]are[/u] [i]the very words of God Himself[/i]. This is high treason! This is scandalous, incredulous and presumptive and let me overstate the matter one last time, this has nothing to do with sincerity or love for the Lord or any other thing, it is not the point! There is a world of difference between using hyperbole to stress a point, to using a "I think" statement on it's own, "I got a sense", "I got a hunch", "I could see the Lord doing _____". And that which is statement, that which is "factual" and that which is supposedly 'from the Lord' or "Thus sayeth the Lord". These distinctions are what are under examination. And those which we ought to be calling an accounting for, [i]statements[/i] of events not transpired according to that which was 'prophesied'.

This all begs a million questions. Ramifications. What are we to say now to those who have bought all this non-sense, to those babes, to the new believers who have bought into all this for days and months and years. Put a notion in their head of coming destruction or pleasant prosperity. Fostered an abstract, vague and horoscope like insinuation that is counter to or the equivalent of The Psychic Hotline? Pick and choose, maybe this and maybe that, perhaps it's a delay, perhaps the 'prophet' is off with his time-line, maybe 'they repented'. The catch words and 'Christian-ease' vernacular surrounding all this, 'flows' and 'anointings' and "prophets" patting each other on the back, "God is shaking ... God is "releasing" ... God is ______"

No! Absolutely not, NO!

It is high time this whole thing was called on the carpet. The sheer lack of concern, the sheer lack of [i]thinking[/i], if these are so good at predicting why pray tell can they not see far enough into the future at what all this has wrought? Do they fool themselves into thinking that they are God's mouthpiece while the world looks on and waits for something ... honest and true, something of what we, [i][b]Christians[/b][/i] purport to live and die for? This? This take it or leave it mentality, this ... oops, I guess I was off here a shade or two, maybe the Lord meant ... next year?

Dear people this is so much rubbish!

[i]The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully.[/i] Jer 23:28

Grand statements here. Are we still deriving from Old Testament times and 'prophets'? An open question and debate, still the definitions are muddy. But is the principle still applicable? Forget the word 'prophet' for a moment, the man\woman who has a dream, let them tell a dream and even if that dream has to do with the Lord does His Name thereby have to be brought into it as [i]ipso facto[/i] as either factual evidence that this is [i]His[/i] communication? Tell the dream and leave it at that, [b]IF[/b] and a grand [i]if[/i] at that any one of us is going to be so astute as to p r o n o u n c e anything whatsoever, any word, any thought, any direction or forth-telling there can be absolutely NO equivocation, none! When this is done the whole credibility is out the window by sheer definition. IF you have heard from the Lord you have heard from the Lord, If HE says something is going to come to pass it will come to pass in the time-line and at the time that the one who spoke the words said it will or it is NOT from the Lord. Period. Don't think for a moment that there is not an abduction for turning back by repentance and that this is also not very generally more in line with particular prophecy any way. The preaching of Jonah and the repentance that followed staved off what would have met their fate if they had not. But far too often these prophetic utterances come without any true and real qualifiers and worse, the aspects of reality that might otherwise prove their validity are not shown nor recognized. For a modern day 'prophet' to warn of "This, or [i]else[/i]" and there be no proof of turning will not validate a 'missed' 'prophecy'.

[b][i]he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully[/i][/b]

That is where this whole year long process has now come to an end. Both IRONMAN and Rahman, you have 'prophesied' falsely. You have equivocated and defended that which is indefensible despite the attempts of some of us to turn your thoughts again to whether or not what you think you have heard is indeed from the Lord. You have said some very incredible things throughout all these postings and over the course of the year if not longer. Go back and read them all, they are your words about what you 'think' and we have been trying in a variety of ways to tell you not to rely on your own musings and turn them out as 'prophecy'. They may be a hundred and one things, but they are not [i]so[/i].They may be most earnest and heart felt and what you felt and what you feel but we must get ourselves and our thoughts aligned with the Book.

Chapter and verse! [i]To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.[/i] Isa 8:20

Hard words? Indeed hard. I would not venture to apply that there is no light absolutely, but the words, the 'prophecy' and to apply this more generally to the so called prophets with a free flow of notions and slippery, sloppy, unthought utterances ... there is no light in them and that is what many of us have been trying to speak back into the hearing of this whole flimsy 'prophetic movement'.

You have given many people some very hard words yourselves with these utterances. Thank God He is merciful! If you had lived in the days of Deuteronomy you may well have been under a pile of stones! Think about it! And for the life of me, why will the 'prophets' of this day and age not think of the very same? Why will they not stop and think about the disgrace and shoddiness, the reproach cast upon the Testimony of the Lord, why can they not understand the few that will rise up and speak to this epidemic, listen to the heart of what I mean;

[i]I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.[/i] Rev 19:10

Thy brethren
That have
The testimony
Of Jesus

Is this not indeed what is ultimately meant by;

[i]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.[/i] 1Co 14:32

We still, to this very day, do not have a working definition that I for one am convinced of regarding this whole realm of prophetic manner as it applies to this day we now live in. I am admittedly and unashamedly suspicious of the whole great construct. Why...

For one thing it is setup with a reference to what is the Christian-ish status quo. In other words, there is an 'ideal' that has not been taken to task in and of itself. It has a likeness and derivatives certainly from the scripture but it is as if the whole thing is only partially or less, true. We are dealing with facts. We are dealing with exactness and we are dealing with authenticity. But unfortunately the point of reference is something man made and man derived and man driven. This is where the whole strange backdrop and I will say [u]threat[/u] of [i]touch not My anointed[/i] comes from. I beg to ask, just [i]who[/i] are these things aimed at? It is a vague question towards a vague construct. For instance here, at SermonIndex, are we dealing with Pharisees who do not know the Lord in the deepest regions of their souls? What is it that is promoted here? Old, 'vintage' speakers, teachers, pastors, writers. In article and in voice. We are of the sort that is not better nor more spiritual but if we may say anything towards it at all, we are predominantly those who love the Lord with all our heart and all our strength and all our minds. Surely we are not alone and neither are we 'exclusive', we would be promoting the greatest oxymoron and hypocrisy there ever was by sheer definition and reproach of the ones still yet speaking!

I am bringing this all up because I well recognize what this whole business of judging is made up of. But I want to put it as plainly and earnestly as I can. I want to be judged [i]now[/i] by God, not later. This is the time to get things reconciled and repaired, this is the time to be brutally honest, I welcome it whole heatedly, we all ought to welcome it [i]now[/i]. Do we really want all our dirty laundry exposed at the judgment when we could well be washing each others dirty sin stained garments now, along with our feet? This is the point, this is the effort.

I am of the mind that not only in this matter at hand but far beyond it, we are in need of true spiritual discernment. It can be and is something a bit evasive and why we need these 'old timers' who had it in great quantity and even each other to discern this present day and it's mass confusion. It is so, is it not? Wisdom from above. The ability to concentrate spiritually. To ponder and contemplate spiritually. To restrain ourselves from the compulsion to speak the first thing that jumps up into our minds, this, I am finding to my distress is still a great problem personally. To wait. To be patient. To just ... think. And I think praying is much of all these things and I am convinced that it is prayer where we are in a great deficit;

[i] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?[/i] Rom 11:34

[i]For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.[/i] 1Co 2:16

The question arises, do we? Do we have [i]this[/i] mind? If we do then how is it that we can get so much wrong, especially in regards to this prophetic business?

It is my sincerest hope that a great deal of good will come out of this in due time. That it might serve up as perhaps it's own warning, perhaps it's own 'prophetic-ness' if I must use the terminology. I did pray much before writing this all out and found it somewhat strange that it came about while my heart and gut's were being spilled out elsewhere, on completely different matters. Don't read into that anything please. I am not about to start injecting my own foolish notions into anything whatsoever, only an explanation to why after deriding myself for so much chatter in recent days this is all coming forth.

To the specifics more pointedly and the brothers ... I am of no respect to say anything whatsoever, these are my observations and my concerns. As a pilgrim I would suggest that you both might want to hold your peace for a season and take what will, I am assured will be other response here, to heart and to the Lord in prayer. I flatly refuse to start dictating outcomes though I might suspect there will be some pain involved. To reiterate what was spoken many months ago when this subject was reproached and an inference was made about what our response might be, again do not mis-judge us in the heart. There have been many prayers then and I assure you will be again now unto the days ahead. My prayer is that the Lord will be merciful but that you will not soon forget and that you may well become those who will turn this to true, scriptural and spiritual mandates after it all has been tried in the fire.


"Weird faith". This has been swirling around since it has been mentioned so many times. Let me assure you that you are not alone and there is something almost derogatory that would set yourselves up as separate from the rest of us by way of this 'prophetic mantle'. You think you are alone in your burdens and perplexities and there is a inference and often an insinuation that [i]no one knows the pain I am going through[/i], do read the generalities straight into this, this is yet another aspect to the selfsame 'prophets' of our day, that they alone have a special burden exclusive to the rest of the Brethren. Well, rubbish.

[u]Too much of the man[/u]

There is so much redundancy that it practically seems useless to keep going on and on and covering the same ground but I want to broaden this to these more high profiled self-styled 'prophets' of our day. It is a plea for an accounting and an accountability. You want to see revival and perhaps even at the most intimate place in your being springs your motivation. You want to see it? Then do the very thing that brings true revival ... repent. Repent [i]to God[/i]. It is He you have to do with.

Then take up the courage and repent before your own Brethren and the world. Take off this mantle and put on humility, honesty and become as [i]he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully[/i]. This is the nature of true prophecy, [i]faithful[/i], but I believe wholeheartedly that we do not even understand what a prophet is or is to do in this day and hour. This much I do know, it is definitely not what these have been doing collectively for however long now, this whole spurious, call it a movement, call it what you will but Andrew Strom was right, it is a spiritual quagmire.

There is no training in how to become a prophet. And to even bring the hard words necessary to a sleeping Church is not proof of validity either. The whole basis is full of leaks and holes. We have built up a construct that is part Old Testament oracle, part spurious divination, a sprinkling of educated guess and a bunch of parsed Scripture topped off with a spiritual cap. We have built up a [i]man[/i] as the import to be heard, where a [i]prophet[/i] is one who who expects [i][b]God[/b][/i] to be heard. But again, we still have a flimsy definition. There is a confusion of office and title. There is a misunderstanding and misapplication of role. There is much in every way that begs more questions than answers. I cannot adequately do the defining but I am pleading for an honest re-evaluation and really am asking that this construct as we have it today be torn down, it is nothing but ruin to it's hearers and is spreading both unfounded fear and unsupported pleasantries on the flip-side. Cult's are made up of this very substance, speculative things, presumptuous things, things of the imagination and things of our fallen nature. It's a crossing of the wires, it's a crossing of the boundaries.


What does all of this say of our witnessing? We have an idea that our witnessing is something we do by way of handing out tracts and putting people on the spot like the telemarketer does when they call your house. And like them, most are just hanging up. Don't misunderstand, these things are not in and of themselves in error but it is our witness that breaches our efforts that I am speaking of. We are too often fueled by coersion, by manipulation and by program. Far too much. This prophetic utterance is ruining our witness by presenting us as prone to flights of fancy and indeed we are, our very results bring our indictment. The world looks on, and then hangs up.

[u]Some observations[/u]

As it applies here to this setting, to this forum, there has been much and great patience with these things. I want to think it was as much an accidental as it was a purposeful one to allow this all to play out. I do pray if anything at all the charity and patience in this allowance is never taken for granted. There are guidelines and there is the enforcement of them. We could be faulted for not being more stringent and even accused of duplicity, but I will forward it is charity and a best dependence as can be discerned as to what to do in any given situation. Going forward I suspect this realm will be treated quite differently, it has now come to a fulcrum.

We have to become even better students of this Book in this day and age we are living in. What we have at our very disposal is a mountain of precious thought experienced by thousands of our predecessors and could I just ask, where is this style of prophetic predicting and predicating so much in evidence? Is it not a modern notion? Is it not far more rare than common? Is not a prophetic forth telling of events on the horizon itself a rare occurrence, even in New Testament scripture, besides that of those walked before us?

There is very good reason for appealing to these Old Paths and old saints, they have something to teach us if we are but willing to hear them still speaking. Have in mind an example but before that, one last note.

Rebuttals to all this. We have heard many of them already and I do not know that everything is discounted or thrown off to the side, we are, hopefully, after one purpose and that is to get to the very bottom of matters if not more so the heart and truth of them. My opinion is worthless as to what is or is not 'in operation' in this day and I won't give it beyond what I can best discern is noted already, rarity. Rarity in forth telling. Probably the greatest 'counter' brought up to all this prophetic construct is;

[i]He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.[/i] Mat 10:41

There is much in every way the matter of context. Better I find it to let Matthew Henry speak to this as well as to the example I want to end off with;

"... That kindness to Christ's disciples which he will accept, must be done with an eye to Christ, and for his sake. A prophet must be received [i]in the name of a prophet[/i], and a [i]righteous man[/i] in the name of a [i]righteous man[/i], and one of those [i]little ones[/i] in [i]the name of a disciple;[/i] not because they are learned, or witty, nor because they are our relations or neighbours, but because they are righteous, and so bear Christ's image; because they are prophets and disciples, and so are sent on Christ's errand. It is a believing regard to Christ that puts an acceptable value upon the kindnesses done to his ministers. Christ does not interest himself in the matter, unless we first interest him in it. [i]Ut tibi debeam aliquid pro eo quod praestas, debes non tantum mihi praestare, sed tanquam mihi - If you wish me to feel an obligation to you for any service you render, you must not only perform the service, but you must convince me that you do it for my sake.[/i] Seneca."

Matthew Henry

In hindsight I believe this needs it's own treatment elsewhere. Had it in mind to develop from 1 Cor 14 all that is contained there. The words seem quite interchangeable rather than isolated, a handful of them;


By contrast;

'Speak into the air'
'understandeth not'

The whole of this seems to suggest something that needs to be held together and not regulated out into departments as this day has it. Tongues, prophesying, knowledge, doctrine, revelation. There is a bottom line that must met with understanding or all is [i]madness[/i].

[i]Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.[/i] 1Co 14:1

[b]1Co 14:1-5 -[/b]
The apostle, in the foregoing chapter, had himself preferred, and advised the Corinthians to prefer, Christian charity to all spiritual gifts. Here he teaches them, among spiritual gifts, which they should prefer, and by what rules they should make comparison. He begins the chapter,

I. With an exhortation to charity (1Co_14:1): [i]Follow after charity[/i], pursue it. The original, [i]diōkete[/i], when spoken of a thing, signifies a singular concern to obtain it; and is commonly taken in a good and laudable sense. It is an exhortation to obtain charity, to get this excellent disposition of mind upon any terms, whatever pains or prayers it may cost: as if he had said, “In whatever you fail, see you do not miss of this; the principal of all graces is worth your getting at any rate.”

II. He directs them which spiritual gift to prefer, from a principle of charity: [i]“Desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy,[/i] or chiefly that you may prophesy.” While they were in close pursuit of charity, and made this Christian disposition their chief scope, they might be zealous of spiritual gifts, be ambitious of them in some measure, [u]but especially of prophesying, that is, of interpreting scripture.[/u] This preference would most plainly discover that they were indeed upon such pursuit, that they had a due value for Christian charity, and were intent upon it. Note, Gifts are fit objects of our desire and pursuit, in subordination to grace and charity. That should be sought first and with the greatest earnestness which is most worth.

III. He assigns the reasons of this preference. And it is remarkable here that he only compares prophesying with speaking with tongues. It seems, this was the gift on which the Corinthians principally valued themselves. This was more ostentatious than the plain interpretation of scripture, more fit to gratify pride, but less fit to pursue the purposes of Christian charity; it would not equally edify nor do good to the souls of men. For, 1. He that spoke with tongues must wholly speak between God and himself; for, whatever mysteries might be communicated in his language, none of his own countrymen could understand them, because they did not understand the language, 1Co_14:2. Note, What cannot be understood can never edify. No advantage can be reaped from the most excellent discourses, if delivered in unintelligible language, such as the audience can neither speak nor understand: but he that prophesies speaks to the advantage of his hearers; they may profit by his gift. Interpretation of scripture will be for their edification; they may be exhorted and comforted by it, 1Co_14:3. And indeed these two must go together. Duty is the proper way to comfort; and those that would be comforted must bear being exhorted.

Matthew Henry

"[i]of prophesying, that is, of interpreting scripture.[/i]"

Notice the ties;

[i]And it is remarkable here that he only compares prophesying with speaking with tongues. It seems, this was the gift on which the Corinthians principally valued themselves. This was more ostentatious than [b]the plain interpretation of scripture[/b], more fit to gratify pride, but less fit to pursue the purposes of Christian charity; it would not equally edify nor do good to the souls of men.[/i]

Is this not where we are at right now? Is this not where the whole prophetic business and it's modern day construct has gone over the rails? Appealing to pride and to the 'man', the man of the hour, the 'prophet'? There are multitudes who are hanging on the [i]words[/i] that these men and often women are speaking forth as oracles, oracles! Do we know what [i]that[/i] word means?

[b]OR'ACLE, n.[/b] [L. oraculum, from oro, to utter.]

1. Among pagans, the answer of a god or some person reputed to be a god, to an inquiry made respecting some affair of importance, usually respecting some future event, as the success of an enterprise or battle.

2. The deity who gave or was supposed to give answers to inquiries; as the Delphic oracle.

3. The place where the answers were given.

4. Among christians, oracles, in the plural, denotes the communications, revelations or messages delivered by God to prophets. In this sense it is rarely used in the singular; but we say, the oracles of God, divine oracles, meaning the Scriptures.

5. The sanctuary or most holy place in the temple, in which was deposited the ark of the covenant. 1 Ki 6.

6. Any person or place where certain decisions are obtained.

7. Any person reputed uncommonly wise, whose determinations are not disputed, or whose opinions are of great authority.

8. A wise sentence or decision of great authority.

OR'ACLE, v.i. To utter oracles.

Certainly this too has been contorted and misapplied. We mean the opposite, not the scriptures. We ought to mean and to state, to borrow from Philologos; [i]saying the same thing as God says[/i]. That goes for our repentance as for our utterance. The scriptures, let [i]them[/i] speak, let them interpret, let [i]us[/i] do our [i]'prophesying'[/i] from them, within them out from them. This is the meaning of prophesying;

"[i]Interpretation of scripture will be for their edification; they may be exhorted and comforted by it, 1Co_14:3. And indeed these two must go together.[/i]"

I have a suspicion this will not play out very well. We will not like having to take down this idol or rather idle construct and bring it to the force and brunt of scripture itself. We would rather shove it off to one side and go on with our imaginations an compulsions, our charismatic excitement and seeming ability to predict the future. It's strangely not as exciting. I think there is a large part of [i]I don't care[/i] woven into it's fabric. We will go on doing what we have been doing because we [i]feel[/i] that we have heard from God Himself and must go and tell who ever it is that it is so loosely aimed at or whoever stumbles into it's cross hairs. They won't stop. The false prophet will just as likely stop up his ears at the whole notion that he is [i]false[/i], it is too accusatory and we don't have a stomach for it. We don't have it in large measure at any rate and it is what stops us dead in our tracks because we are so ridiculously and easily offended. And we don't care about the effects or the ramifications on the hearers, the gullible, the new believer and we too soon forget that we were once all these things and just often bound up in them ourselves.

It has to stop, though it won't. We will have false prophets amongst us as it has been ... prophesied. Strange enough as it seems, false is false and yet there is also an aspect of 'intent to injure' or even the drawing off of [i]disciples unto oneself[/i] that finds it's way into this muddy mix. Yes, I think there is a distinction to be made as far as our brothers here are concerned but I do not know where we merit out or dictate the reults of all this, let me just plainly state it, the punishment or lack of. Sometimes the pain of forgiveness is as excruciating. That must be left to them and to the Lord. I hesitate to even say these words, I am an unprofitable servant, these are observations and compellings if you will, but for the life of me if we cannot address these things head on then where pray tell will be in the days and weeks ahead, as long as the lord tarries?

Mike Balog

 2008/1/1 11:24Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK


If I could put into words what my heart would say it would be what Mike Balog has wrote.

Enough Said

Colin Murray

 2008/1/1 19:18Profile

 Re: to Ironman and Rahman

I'm just glad that there is grace for repentance and restoration now. In Old Testament Law it was the death penalty for this and other sins.

Peter denied the Lord with curses (= "bearing false witness")

He went out and wept bitterly, and was restored and given a "key role" in the early Church, to bring the Gospel to the people.

Paul exhorted the Corinthian church to forgive and restore the man who had his father's wife, because he repented.

Again worthy of the death penalty under the Law.

Samson despised his Nazarene oath and squandered his strength on prostitutes. He suffered greatly but gained victory in the end, and is even in the Hebrews 11 "hall of fame".

I used to claim that I was this or that in spiritual gifting (teacher and intercessor at different times). That doesn't carry the death penalty, but it was presumption all the same.

Now I know better than to claim anything, only to learn to walk more closely with the Lord and seek to move in the "works prepared beforehand", whatever they may be. Including keeping quiet when necessary, or as a friend puts it "keeping yer gob shut".

Yes there is need of repentance, Brothers. But when you have repented, restoration. As Paul said of the man who did a far worse thing - in the sense that it brought the church into greater disrepute - "[color=990000]2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.[/color]"

I and others were probably at fault in that we tried to apply the comfort first, (partly in reaction to what was perceived as the condemnation of others) before the repentance!

Love in Him


 2008/1/1 19:54

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