| Re: one question about hell and one question about countires who never hear the gospe|
ok now i used to believe 100% about hell being for eternity, but now im thinking about how that could be. I don't understand how you would suffer for ETERNITY. I mean i know im not god and that i wouldn't understand fully, but i guess i want people here to just tell me an explanation so i can believe it because i don't feel right not being 100% about all gods word...my question is i can not understand about why muslims or other countries who would go to hell if they have never had the gospel preached to them...it doesn't make sense i mean they had NO way to hear the gospel and what if all they had to do was hear about jesus for 1 second yet they had NO way of knowing and then they die and they go to hell.....?Im just hoping to get sense so that my faith wont be less than 100% with those 2 things from the bible...thats all i have been struggling with
I understand this one. You have a trememdous amount to learn about God, and about the nature of man, before you let this one settle. The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 1 explains that man is without excuse, because of the fact that all mankind have been given enough in their make up to acknowledge the truth, but instead the suppress the truth in ungodliness. There is also some stuff you will need to learn about God chosing who He wants. I suggest you take a time out, ask God to open your eyes to His word and read through the whole of Romans.
In His service,
Eric John Sawyer
| 2006/6/22 10:21||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
i think blake's point (and i agree with it) is that we need to be in line with the Lord first for scripture to be in any way profitable for us. We know Christ to be the Word of God and the scriptures to be the word of God and there is a difference. the one was with God and was God and so points to the Father, the other is the testimony of the Word (Christ) which points to Christ who then points to the Father. so while there is a difference, the 2 are intimately intertwined such that we must have both.
If we are not rooted in the Lord firmly, even scripture can quickly become an idol and we ought to be wary of this too.
| 2006/6/22 11:46||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| on the Judgment of a Righteous God|
i have been following this discussion and am led of God to share some things for His glory via our benefit. The struggle with the notion of an eternal hell to pay for a life of maybe 70 yrs seems grossly unfair to most people no doubt. it seems to be a stumbling block for some of the saints also. However there are some things we ought to consider which would help us graps this concept.
1) our sense of what is just and righteous stems from our flesh and therefore is perverted. not many of us think we deserve hell for what we've done because we can always find someone who has done worse in our book, however our book is rather partial and self-serving. we think "oh that sin can't be bad enough that it deserves hell" brethren our opinion on this is of no consequence, the only opinion which matters is God's because He's the one who does the sentencing.
2) because our sense of what is just and righteous is perverted, we are unable to see these 2 things as God does rendering us unable to be sympathetic to Him. to be sympathetic to Him is to then labuor with Him to bring us to a point where we conduct ourselves as He would have us so that the true Righteousness of God is shone forth and men will be convicted by God and repent. if we saw sin as God did, this would not be an issue. there is no sin which is underserving of hell and we would see that we ourselves are deserving of hell but are under the mercy of God by Christ's blood. When we see this, the Faith becomes for us a priviledge rather than a right and we are compelled to share the gospel.
God's Righteousness is revealed from heaven and is made plain throught creation. there is noone on earth who doesn't know there is a God. even the athiest knows there is a God but in professing himself wise, his foolish heart was darkened and eventually because he didn't like to retain thoughts of God, he was given over to a reprobate mind, hence all the foolish ideas out there like evolution etc.
now while noone may have expressly gone to a country/person to preach the gospel, the Lord will send an angel to proclaim the gospel to all nations in revelation 14 vs 6. so ultimately no one will have an excuse.
the judgements of a Righteous and Holy God are alien to an unrighteous and unholy people as we are. by nature we are averse to all things of God especially (i think anyway) His judgement. it's always (or almost always) fine when the judgement falls on someone else, however when it falls on you, suddenly it's not fair...the Lord convicted me by showing me how i responded to getting speeding tickets. i have a heavy foot and a powerful german sedan capable of high speed (by God's grace i've only gotten 1 ticket in this car, however in past cars i was not as fortunate) now when i'd get a ticket i'd get mad at the officer for writing it. never mind the fact that i had no business doing 80 in a 65 in the first place...when someone else gets tagged with a ticket i'd be gleeful...the Lord showed me i deserved those tickets and had no business driving that fast so i had no business being mad. how many of us honestly don't get mad when we get a ticket? if we struggle even with this, how much harder will it be to grasp the judgments of a Holy God?
| 2006/6/22 12:28||Profile|
South Central Kentucky
| Re: on the Judgment of a Righteous God|
I haven't read all the post on here, but have responded to this question many times before on the streets to unbelievers who ask about those who haven't heard. I have started making a list of [url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Q_&_A_To_Christianity.pdf]Frequently Asked Questions and Answers[/url]. I add to the list periodically. This question is the second one I have answered. God Bless...
| 2006/6/22 13:08||Profile|
I am not sure how to explain this. We agree on many things, of course, the foremost being Christ is Lord.
I am certainly not denying the importance and significance of God's Word, that being the things God has said, or the teaching and sayings of Jesus. I do believe in agreement with scripture that the words that came from the mouth of Jesus, were the very words of God, as it says in John 3:34 (KJ), "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him"
The teachings of Jesus and the words of Jesus are the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God. However, the bible is a testimony to the Word of God.
When God spoke, the words proceeded from His mouth. His speaking was then witnessed by another person and recorded. Imagine this, you are the apostle Luke living in the time of Christ. You stand there before this man called Christ, and listen in amazement to the truths He is speaking. Your heart burns within you. Sometime later, the Holy Spirit stirs within you, and recalls all these teachings to mind. You write out everything you experienced in a letter to a friend whom you wish to inform of these events.
The book of Luke, as with all the bible, is a copy or recording of what Jesus taught. When Luke sat down, he recorded what He saw and heart. Luke wrote His testimony. He witnessed to the Word of God.
The same was true of the ten commandments. God wrote on two stone tablets with His very finger His Word. The Word was recorded or copied onto stone tablets. The stone tablets were then called a testimony because they testify to the Word of God. In Exodus 31:18 (NAS), it says, "When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God." The stone tablets are a recording or testimony to the Word of God.
You are correct in saying the words Jesus spoke are the cake. Indeed, Jesus is the cake. However, the bible is the icing. The bible is a recording of Jesus. This difference may seem small, but it is immense. The words that came from Jesus were the words of God. The words that came from Luke were a recording of the words of God. This means that Jesus is God. His words are God's words. The bible, however, is not God. The words of the bible are not God's words, but rather a recording.
Immediately, when I highlight this truth, people become shaken, because they feel that if this is true, then the bible cannot be trusted. Of course, this does bring into question the validity of the bible. I believe with all my heart the bible is trustworthy. These men and women who wrote the bible did so under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit. As such, they were not acting upon their own facilities.
Even still, some people might say that proves the bible is the Word of God. But if that were true, then we also have to say all the writers were also God. Jesus Christ is the only person who ever lived that it can be said, "The words of Jesus are the very words of God." Are the words of Luke the very words of God?
God may use Luke to speak, as a vessel. He may use me or you to share His Word. You may stand up and preach to the Church and be used by God to speak His Word. In that moment, the Holy Spirit may fill you, and you may speak the God's Word. But no matter how many times that occurs, you will never be God. You will always be a vessel used by God.
The same is true of the bible. The bible is a testimony to the Word of God. The bible is a vessel through which the Word of God may come.
It was recorded by and for good reason.
I do agree with you. The bible was recorded for a very good reason, for reasons we may never know or understand. I also believe the bible is a gift from God, commissioned by God, and directed by God. However, even though this is true, it still does not make it the Word of God. The fact it is a testimony is also significant. God could have written out the entire bible Himself. However, He chose to use human beings. This is important.
To what will we appeal to? The often fuzzy notions mingled in with the ongoing renewing of our minds and hearts? Trust yourself and your own thoughts?
We should always make our appeal to Christ first. The bible then can be used as a way to test if what we are hearing is correct.
I do understand where you are coming from in this. My mind often travels in chaotic places. However, my best test has not always been the bible, but rather the very person of Christ as I know Him to be. Is this reflective of Christ? Even this, however, has loopholes, and so I used multiples things to test theories and doctrines. I pray first. I then ask if it resonates with what I know about my Savior. I check the bible. I present it before the Church. I continue to seek until Christ confirms the matter in me.
You also have to consider this when reading the bible. If you turn to the bible for all your answers, as the authority of all doctrines, then you face the issue of interpretation. How do you really know you are interpreting the text correctly?
Truly, we know if it is correct because of Christ in us. When we read the bible, the Holy Spirit explains it to us. However, what if in that moment you are not listening? We have all had moments where we thought the bible said one thing, only to discover later we were wrong. As we grow in Christ, we learn more. As time goes on, we learn that we know very little.
The only true way to know truth is to seek it. Jesus Christ is the truth. And so, if we constantly seek Christ, He will direct our path. We must place all our trust in Jesus. Otherwise, we could be misinterpreting the bible. Imagine the danger in that? What if we were misinterpreting the bible and were acting as a false teacher? Will not teachers and preachers be judged greater? We had better make sure, absolute sure, we have given ourselves over to Christ before we teach or preach, otherwise we are entering in a very dangerous ground. We are putting someone else's life at risk with our own.
If we really stop to think about it ... Better, a different approach. Brother, take away all the scriptures.
I have three responses to this. The first is this: I agree with you that the scriptures are significant. They are important for many reasons. However, this does not make them the Word of God. If the bible was the very Word of God, it could not be changed in anyway. It would be perfect and unbreakable.
The law is perfect and unbreakable. The law is recorded in the bible. The bible is a recording of the law. It is a testimony. If someone were to change a few words in the bible, would that change the law? No, the law will always be the same. The law is not restricted or contained by the material it is written on. The law is given by God, and authorized by God as well.
The scriptures are significant because they help deliver a message of truth. This message is preserved in the bible. However, this still does not make the bible the Word of God. The bible is a recording of the message. The bible is a testimony to the Word of God.
The Word of God can come through other things. It can be revealed to you directly apart from the bible. It can come to you from another person. It can come through documents other than the bible. However, we can always be sure that the Word of God will always be the same. Since it is the same, since the Word of God never changes, we can test all things against one another. If two or more come together in the name of Christ and agree, Christ is there. Likewise, if something you think disagrees with the bible, then obviously Christ is not there.
My second response to the above question is this: what happens when the bible is taken from us?
There may come a time when we will not have the bible. What will you do when you don't have it? What happens if tomorrow, the United States is overturned by apostacy, and the bible is banned? What will we do then?
The teachings of Jesus were recorded in the bible. The Word of God is recorded in the bible. However, the Word of God is also recorded in each one of us. When the bible is gone, the Word will still dwell in each believer. We will then have to trust in the Holy Spirit to recall it unto remembrance, just as the apostles did.
If Jesus truly lives in us, then we are walking bibles. We have the bible in us. Truly, it is nice to have it all written out for us. It is easy to be able to sit and read the words for ourselves, and then put a measure of faith in the bible versus our own understanding. By this agree. However, there are people who don't have or haven't had easy access to the bible. They truly had to live by faith, completeing trusting in Christ to lead them.
I hope we will always have the bible. I love to read it. The Lord has revealed so much to me from the bible. However, we must also be careful that the bible does not become a substitute for faith. There is a danger which is present in the Church where people are substituting a faith in Christ for a faith in the bible.
I am not saying this is you, my brother. I have never thought that of you. However, unless we all open our eyes to this reality and start teaching the truth, our fellow brothers and sisters will continue to walk wayward and we will be held accountable.
This is my appeal to the entire Church.
In Christ and love,
| 2006/6/22 16:34||Profile|
Peace River, AB, Canada
| Re: one question about hell and one question about countires who never hear the gospe|
Hello there all. It's been a while since I've visited this site. I had a brief look at this discussion and would like to add my bit.
I believe that all the doctrines of the Bible are reasonable in themselves even though some involve unaproachable mysteries (like the Trinity). The doctrine of Hell, however, can be very easily understood by a couple of fundamental considerations.
1) The human soul is eternal. Nothing shall cease to exist unless there is that which contradicts its existence. To suppose otherwise is the same as affirming that there can be an event without a cause which is absurd. The human soul is not material in its constitution and owes its existence to God alone and this I believe to be quite manifest. God alone can destroy the human soul.
2) If the human soul is eternal then so are the natural consequences of sin. If the natural consequences of sin are eternal then so must the corresponding retributions for sin be else God is unjust.
Even if the punishment for each sin were not eternal yet the sinner should be in Hell eternally. Consider the following.
1) God in order to satisfy the demands of public justice (the good of his creatures) must punish sin. If he does not punish sin then His government would necessarily fall into contempt.
2) God judges the heart of man and not only the outward actions.
3) The sinner even after being punished will remain sinful. No sinner will ever be saved outside of the influence of the Gospel. I believe this point to be quite clear. The sinners punishment is to be cast into "outer darkness" where there is no positive moral influence whatever and thus will remain in a state of rebellion against God.
4) The sinner continuing in a state of rebellion against God will impel more and more corresponding retributions to be devolved upon him.
I hope this helps.
Another thing that I would add is this. I did not thoroughly look through all that was said, however, I did notice that there were no metaphysical arguments given in defence of this Biblical doctrine. The God-given nature of man requires us to look into the reason for things and longs for a fuller understanding. I would state that we should not satisfy ourselves with the fact that the Bible says such and such a thing to be true. I don't think that it was in the purpose of our God to stop us there. Let us enable ourselves to argue for the truth of Biblical doctrine on all fronts. I do not say that the Bible is not enough to prove that such a doctrine is true but rather that we should confirm our convictions that the Bible is indeed the word of God by subjecting it to scrutiny. The Bible has, can and will stand up to any honest scrutiny that we can give it. Also, there are some that will not believe that the Bible is the word of God when the doctrines contained therein are thought to be unreasonable. Let's not give philosophy and metaphysics into the enemies hands.
Please consider this link for a fuller presentation of the arguments just stated.
Sincerely in Christ Randy.
| 2006/6/24 12:42||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
the 2 are intimately intertwined such that we must have both.
Thanks IRONMAN, that would have saved me a mile of typing that I just scrapped... Probably to momentous a task to attempt to draw out Blakes matters with the questions started here. Re-reading some bits on the other thread about this matter of the bible being God's Word (Or not), it just became endless semantics. It really needs no defending nor distracting from it despite Blakes overbearing approach or my silly attempts at trying to state the obvious. His point is not lost IF he would have kept it in the realm of those who are [i]using[/i] the scriptures for self serving needs and there are many. But to attempt to put the whole of it in phrases such as "Significant", "important", "good for teaching" etc. etc. is to put another wrong emphesis in it's place.
| 2006/6/24 15:50||Profile|