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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The "Glory Departed" (The 'Betrayal of the Ages' III)

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

AS LONG AS HE SOUGHT THE LORD

And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.(II Chronicles 26:5)

Uzziah is one of many tragic figures in the word of God; all of which are written for our instruction and our learning. Uzziah was greatly blessed of God and did many exploits in Israel. But there is a tragic end to this otherwise glorious, God glorifying life.

But when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction: for he transgressed against the LORD his God, and went into the temple of the LORD to burn incense upon the altar of incense.(26:16)

It is hard to understand how such a thing can happen. We can only speculate as to the finer details, but [i]...when he was strong, his heart was lifted up to his destruction...[/i]. What went wrong? I think we have a clue if we contrast the Uzziah that was lifted up- with the one who [i]sought the LORD[/i].

This is the very spirit of the devil himself if we look closely. Perhaps the favor of God had been misinterpreted and the power [i]source[/i] was forgotten. It was like a line had blurred in Uzziah's heart between his own natural abilities, and the power of God that was manifest as he continued to seek the LORD. This is a deadly miscalculation.


Presumption is a most terrible sin, because it disregards God's authority and places 'ours' in His stead. Somehow one would think that they know God well enough to start making decisions and doing things without His direction. The faith movement, so it seems, has to a great extent manufactured presumption.

Imagine a people who decided to go through the scriptures and catalog a passage to fit every possible need they might ever have. They develop this catalog into a mental cross referencing guide that automatically pulls up a scripture verse to 'stand on' in the time of need. Sounds pious? Or does it?

Man is forever trying to devise ways to be [u]religious in God's absence[/u]. They are forever trying to find a means with which to make all this Christian stuff work, without maintaining a daily personal relationship with God. No need to inquire of the LORD for my problem, I'll just look up my proof texts in my trusty cross reference guide and 'stand' on them.

Daily, when we go to God's word for answers or general direction for the day, we go prayerfully and with an open heart for God to speak to us from His word. Often times we are reading along and suddenly the Holy Spirit will direct us to a certain passage and it seems to just lift off the 2 dimensional page into a 3 dimensional reality. God has 'quickened' that passage to your heart; He has given you a revelation of His will. Sometimes the Holy Spirit will bring a passage to our remembrance, etc. The Lord will put His finger on a truth and it is then up to us to trust and obey. We never grow beyond this need to enquire of the Lord, no matter how long we serve God.

Pride took a person who was seeking the Lord for direction and turned him to do what was right in his own eyes. What a wonder, that a person would be lifted up until they say no need to enquire of God. This is the tragedy of our times. What can we learn from such a simple set of verses?

And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/6/29 20:54Profile
mamaluk
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Joined: 2006/6/12
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 Re:

deleted

 2006/6/30 23:18Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
A person can do this and be in direct rebellion against God. [u]'Work's' are acts in the absence of the leading[/u] and empowerment of the Holy Spirit. A person can actually be keeping the traditions and laws real good and yet still be [i][u]resisting[/u][/i] the Holy Ghost.



Hi Robert, been meaning to follow up on this as well as catch up with the more recent postings. I don't know if there is much more important than realizing this and realizing it constantly.

Did snip that there in the middle maybe as seeing it beyond the matters you addressed;

Quote:
It is easy to see how confusion has entered the Body of Christ on the matter of 'works'. The problem is, that folk have learned to take the book and discard God Himself. Religion has been defined as worship in the absence of God. When a person takes the book, extrapolates all the commands and tries to carry them out, it is religion.



Just occurred to me, to back track again;

[i]A person can actually be keeping the traditions and laws real good and yet still be [u]resisting[/u] the Holy Ghost.[/i]

Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


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Mike Balog

 2006/7/1 0:23Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [u]it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.[/u]



Hi Mike,

This is an excellent example of a person resisting the Holy Ghost. It is quite a picture. For those who may not have heard this before the 'pricks' were actually [i]goads[/i]. These are sharp wooden dowel pins that are used by the plowman to control the direction of the animal pulling the plow. A sharp pricking instrument on each side of the animal with a connecting lever made for quite a steering wheel!

To 'kick' against the goads is to keep going the wrong direction in spite of the tremendous pain of conscience and Holy Ghost striving. Truly the way of a transgressor is hard.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/4 20:12Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

OUR PERPETUAL NEED FOR A SAVIOR

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matthew 1:21)

Those who seek to walk upright before God almost invariable find themselves facing a great temptation. That temptation is the constant feeling of needing to 'appear' to have [i]reached[/i] what we have taught and [i]preached[/i]. This can have devastating effects on a persons' relationship with God.

Whan a person is in personal revival they are most conscious of their need for the Savior. They are swift to acknowledge their shortcomings and have no feeling of 'saving face' for the purpose of maintaining an 'image'. They speak the truth and let the chips fall where they may. They hold the same or higher standard of righteousness for themselves as others. They will repent no matter who likes it. They don't care how they 'look' or what people will think about it. In time this vulnerability and 'realness' fades and an image takes its place. That 'image' is the great enemy of ongoing personal revival. So long as we keep feeling we need to maintain an 'image' as if we have fully reached what we have preached, God is silenced as He speaks to our hearts about the things where we fall short. Whether in our own eyes or the eyes of others, our 'image' of ourselves has as much to do with whether we come into and stay in personal revival as anything else.

To this point in our devotions we have emphasized man’s responsibility to respond rightly to God and to do what we believe to be God’s perfect will. We have emphasized the necessity of obedience. This is man’s responsibility, to respond rightly to what God has said. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. This is a perpetual speaking forth and a perpetual requirement to obey. However, there are times when temptations come to compromise the will of God and sin lies at the door.

As believers in holiness and striving for being made perfect in love, there are times when genuine believers fail and fall into sin. This is not to say that it is ‘necessary’ for a Christian to sin because it is not. Yet John gives us insight into this in I John 1:8; [i]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/i] This is an important passage to consider. This is the great temptation many who seek Christian Perfection face, to say "we have [u]no[/u] sin."

We see in the previous verse as we read, [i]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/i] (I John 1:7) The passage states that the blood cleanses us of all sin as we walk in the light. This indicates a need for cleansing in the midst of walking in the light. This is evidence of the need to have our conscience always clean before God.

In pursuit of perfection we sometimes [u]ignore[/u] the so-called ‘little things’ as if we had no sin. This is self-deception. It is the little foxes that spoil the vines. This is compromising the truth for the sake of maintaining a feeling of [i]accomplishment[/i]. It is a seeking to vindicate one’s self, rather than God. Some had rather made God a liar to maintain their self-image of sinlessness than to be sensitive to the Spirit and allow Him to remind us and in turn cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. Matthew Henry comments here, "And therefore, if we say either that we have not sinned or do not yet sin, the word of God is not in us, neither in our minds, as to the acquaintance we should have with it, nor in our hearts, as to the practical influence it should have upon us."


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/10 11:17Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

THE DECEPTION OF MAINTAINING A SPIRITUAL 'IMAGE'

Christians that love the Lord fear to bring a reproach upon His name by some failure or anything that could misrepresent the LORD. They often feel they must walk the New Testament standard at all times and cannot appear to strive under temptation or be weak in any way. In society they would say, "never let them see you sweat."

The self-induced pressure to maintain this ‘image’ of being super victorious can lead a person to ignore any indicators that challenge that image. It can cause a person not to ask for prayer from friends or seek counsel from trusted friends in Christ in times of trial and temptation. If there is a strong sense of self-love then one may actually quinch the Holy Spirit (cease listening to the Holy Spirit when He is putting His finger on things) to keep thmselves appearing righteous and sinless in their own eyes. One may begin to justify things in their life that does not please the LORD. Quinching the Holy Spirit is not a valid means of maintaining a pure conscience- it [i]sears[/i] the conscience with a 'hot iron' (as it were).

There are times in gatherings when folk feel 'impressed' to go before the people for prayer, but they will not do it publicly for fear of loosing face before the people. This is maintaining that 'image' before the people of having it 'all together'. Soon, when the Spirit tries to deal with the person in their personal devotions and quiet time they will 'shut Him down' for fear of loosing their own personal spiritual [i]self-image. [/i]This is not being spiritual, this is being a Pharisee. Notice the word 'image' that keeps coming up.


In laymans terms we could say that one never outgrows the need to respond to an altar call or prayer if God is calling you to respond. Moreover, no one is so spiritual that they do not need to respond to messages from the word at times. The Pharisees used to parade around acting like they needed no repentance. John Baptist called the people to repent and be baptized and the Pharisees, masters at maintaining their spiritual 'image' before the people would not respond to the call. They tried to come off as holy and righteous. This is why Christ could not save them. They refused to admit their need. They refused to call upon the name of the Lord.

There is a idiom here in Missouri that states, "What is good for the [i]goose[/i] is good for the [i]gander[/i]." I suppose we have made a Humpty Dumptyism out of it, as it means more that the equality of the sexes in our usage. I suppose I could say it like this, "What is good for the sinner is good for the repentance preacher." What I mean is, repentance preachers need to repent at times also and they ought to repent in the same measure as they expect from those they preach to. It is my personal opinion, that the spiritual self-image prevents this and in turn greatly reduces the effectiveness of the minister. When was the last time you saw a repentance preacher fall to their knees before the people and cry out for mercy?

How can the Lord save us from our sins if we will not [u]admit[/u] we have any? What is more important, to allow the Lord to save us from sin or to look 'super spiritual' and in no real need? This is the enemies’ deception and a powerful means of making us vulnerable and confident at the same time. The enemy lies to Christians by telling them that if the appear weak or need prayer then somehow it reflects negatively against the Lord or something. "I can't appear to need prayer, I preach repentance!" Well, if you are preaching in such a way that you can't appear to be vulnerable or in 'need' yourself, you are doing something seriously wrong and need to examine yourself. Why? Because what is good for the goose is always good for the gander.

Yet, nothing glorifies the Lord more than when we call upon His name and acknowledge our [u]need[/u] of Him. You are not spiritual because you thank God that you are not like those 'wretched sinners'. You get God's attention when you beat upon your breast and cry out to God, unwilling to even lift your head, "God have MERCY on me a sinner!"

It is evidence that we are a Child of God that we will admit of our need. Reason being is that we are sensitive to the Holy Spirit and are quite self-conscious when it comes to sin. If we deceive ourselves into thinking we have no sin we will go to God in prayer and not even bother to examine ourselves truthfully. Why? We can become afraid that we are not what we believed ourselves to be. This leads to ‘denial’ of our sins. [i]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/i] (I John 1:8)

If you will walk in humility in the times of victiry you will have victory. There is no other way. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. If God were to withdraw His grace from us we had made the inhabitants of Sodom appear to be Saints. It is in grace that we stand. It is grace that we ask for in time of need. Not my own determination, but my willingness to humble myself before him in sincere heart felt reality, sober of mind and aware of my estate. We will call on the name of the LORD and see great exploits when we finally cast down the 'images' we try to project before our own eyes and the eyes of others. You are never stronger than when you realize your weakness.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/11 8:17Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

PERSONAL REVIVAL


As early as the Book of Genesis we gain insight into the relationship between God and man and how 'one-sided' that relationship can degenerate to. Adam and Eve having partaken of the Tree, their conscience affected, they were fleeying from the face of God. Adam did not come looking for God in this condition, it was the other way around.

Personal revival comes about when God in effect in our lives comes asking, "where are you?" Perhaps sin had affected the conscience and we had left off seeking the LORD. Maybe it could be a matter of a slow developing coldness. In any case, God comes searching for us (as it were).

This is the sovereignty of God at work. It's unfortunate that when the Holy Spirit begins to deal with us that somehow we could think it was 'us' that 'decided' to come into revival. This has an immediate effect because the perspective is wrong. Sometimes it can be a progressive misperception as one may start out knowing God was doing the work and in time begin to loose perspective of this being the Lord's working and see [i]themselves[/i] as having 'done' the work. Soon the attitude becomes towards others, "You need to do what I did get revived and you will get my results." The attitude becomes one of condemning folk. This is most unfortunate.

God initiates contact. God initiates personal revival. If one becomes conscious of their need- God is back of it. If one develops an urgency for religion it was God who was drawing them to Himself. While it is said, TODAY if you will hear His voice, harden not your heart.

A few years ago I had gone through a dry time in my walk with the LORD in which I began to think the LORD had forsaken me. I had been struggling in some areas and in my mind, though I did not say it out loud to anyone, I said in my heart "The LORD hath forsaken me." Not that I had committed some terrible sin, but I knew there were areas of my life in which I was in disobedience. I don't want that to sound like a contradiction because sin is sin. Yet I think there is a distinction between that and 'falling'. I had not fallen, I was seriously discouraged.

I went to lunch one day alone with this on my mind. I went to a place and sat down with my food at a table. At once I looked up and two men who were preachers were talking together. A man overheard them sitting behind them and stood up with his wallet in hand and gave the preacher an 'offering' right there at the table. This may be the American Bible Belt, but things don't ever happen like that. I don't think the man was saved that gave it. I marveled at such a thing and went away thinking the Lord had directed my steps to see this happen.

A few weeks or so later my brother and I went to the same place together to eat. On the way I told him the story I just relayed. We went through the line to pay and were met by a woman who wanted to seat us. That was quite odd as we generally always had seated ourself, but we accepted the offer. This was a huge place, so there were hundreds of seats perhaps. The lady led us to the very seat the preacher was setting in when the incident happened a few weeks before. At this point I was in great wonder as the odds of this happening were very low. I smiled at my brother and told him that this was the table that the preacher sat at. I was shaking my head as if to say, "LORD, you know where I am and you are STILL directing my steps." It may seem odd to some, but this carried serious weight in my heart. BUT, God was not done yet.

We finished our food and was ready to leave. My heart greatly encouraged. The gal who had served us had taken our receipt and written a note on it. I could read it from where I was sitting as I sat there and my brother never seen that she had written on it. I motioned with my eyes towards the receipt and said, "Read that." It was a simple note and read:

"God Bless you both Always, Thanks Janie."

To this day I carry that receipt, among other little keep sakes in my wallet as a testimony of one of a trillion ways in which God can 'break radio silence' when we feel we are down and almost out. You may say, "brother you are reading a little much into that I think." Well, you may think so, but I know different. I don't go around divining every thing that happens to me, but there are rare occasions when God will orchestrate events that you [i]know[/i] beyond question that He had gotten your attention. He could not have gotten my attention any better had He spoken audibly.

This, for me, was the beginning of my own personal revival. I had a renewed sense that God cared and that He loved me and that He was still dealing with me... "Robert, where are you?" What a smile that brought to my face! Like a letter left on the windshield of the car by the wife,... "Just wanted to tell you to have a great day at work today and I love you."

You see, it is the goodness of God that will stir up the fallow ground in our hearts as we break and weep when we see His loving hand in our lives. That broke me unlike a thousand hell-fire and brimstone messages. And I have heard more than most, perhaps. I have forgotten a lot of repentance messages, but I have never forgotten and will never forget what God did that day. He broke the silence and in so doing... broke me.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/12 8:33Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

PREACHING THAT PRODUCES RESULTS

It is common for preachers to imploy 'methods' in their preaching to the intent of achieving desired results. This is true across the whole spectrum of most preaching and teaching including false teaching. If I wish for the hearer to do 'X' then I must do 'Y' and 'Z'. This is a suspect concept from the beginning because it ignores the individual need of individual persons at a given time. There is no 'one size fits all' method. This is where the infinite [i]wisdom[/i] and [i]power[/i] of God have to be front and center in ministry.

Repentance preachers in our times are in great danger in my opinion of moving into a 'one size fits all' mode that utilizes a certain 'method' of preaching to achieve the desired result of [i]repentance[/i]. It is generally believed that preaching on righteousness and judgment to come will achieve the desired end. This is likely due to a misunderstanding of former repentance preachers who have preached on these topics and God moved. Many have forgotten that it is the goodness of God that leadeth to repentance just as sure as righteousness and judgment preaching.

I wish to look at two ministers briefly; chiefly Jonathan Edwards and Charles G. Finney. If we extrapolate the most 'potent' messages of Edwards and Finney and launch into ministry with those highly caustic messages we run the risk of causing more harm than good in the long run. Reason being is that in an attempt to 'correct' the errors of easy-believism and false assurance we might well create [b]asymmetric converts[/b]. We note from Edwards, [i]"Not that the symmetry of the virtues, and gracious affections of the saints, in this life is perfect: it oftentimes is in many things defective, through the imperfection of grace, for want of proper instructions, through errors in judgment, or some particular unhappiness of natural temper, or defects in education, and many other disadvantages that might be mentioned. But yet there is, in no wise, that monstrous disproportion in gracious affections, and the various parts of true religion in the saints, that is very commonly to be observed, in the false religion, and counterfeit graces, of hypocrites."[/i]

What Edwards is talking about is having a symetric balance that is in accordance with the person of Jesus Christ. I am not called to be Elijah, I am to be conformed to the image of the Father's Dear Son. What profit is there in modeling my life after Ezekiel? These were certainly godly men, but I am not called to be conformed to Ezekiel or Isaiah or Moses or John the Baptist. [u]We[/u] are called to continue until [u]Christ[/u] be formed in us. This is a most important fact. Although it may seem advantageous to select sermons of Edwards and Finney that achieve great conviction of sin, a careful examination of their lives reveal more symmetry in ministry than they are often portrayed as having.

What do I mean? First of all if you are under the delusion that the [u]content[/u] of their sermons was the secret of the great power towards God you are wrong. It was not the 'words' that Christ and Paul used to cast out devils that was at issue, it was their relationship to God and the power they had with Him. The sons of Sceva found out how just 'mouthing words' (even those of Paul and Jesus) has no real effect on folk in rebellion. You may be sowing 'seed' but that is not what I'm referring to. Sometimes all it does is encite anger and rage. The POWER was in the multiplied hours of prayer and seeking of the face of God. Finney preached with such an unction that he could not raise his voice at times or the whole place would have erupted into some sort of furor.

As a repentance preacher myself I can say that the tendency is often to want to challenge folk and hit at them. This is questionable at best. I have found that the most solemn messages I have ever preached or heard preached, the voices were not much above a whisper. Finney also talks about this happening in meeting houses. When the unction of God is present the power is not in voice inflection or harsh gutteral words, but it is in the [u]unction.[/u]

May we never present a Gospel that does not rightly lead folk into a personal relationship with God. May we never get the idea that it is our place to emulate the prophets. May we ever realize our need to have unction. God can do more with two words with unction than a thousand spoken carefully and craftilly or with a harsh tone. You cannot do with threatenings what God cannot do with unction. If folk don't respond to the message do not resort to rhetoric and criticism. Let God deal with them. Don't allow the rejection of the rightly presented message lead to your interjection of ill devised comments. Maintain your symmetry as a Christian. Rightly represent Jesus Christ and let the prophets be the prophets.




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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/13 8:54Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

THE GOODNESS OF GOD THAT LEADS TO REPENTANCE


[i]Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things. We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God;[/i] (Romans 2:1-5 WEB)

It is a hard heart that fabricates judgments against sinners when they themselves are doing the very same types of things. [i]You are without excuse, whosoever you are that judge[/i]... sobering words to begin teaching the inner workings of the revelation of the Gospel. It is interesting to note how that Paul writing to the Philippians states, [i]Brethren, I could not myself yet to have laid hold: but one thing I do, forgetting the things which are behind, and stretching forward to the things which are before,(ASV)[/i]. Yet, the judge says, "I have apprehended- I have reached 'the mark', why tarry ye and kick against the pricks, I have laid hold- do thou likewise."

Preaching and teaching against sin is not a free pass into Heaven. The [b]stronger[/b] the preaching, the greater the condemnation in the end for those who have not fully obeyed themselves. [i]With what measure ye meet it shall be measured to you again."[/i] Wherefore should our words always be with grace and seasoned with salt? Well, lest you be numbered among those who preach Christ [i]out of envy and strive, while the other of Love or lest we preach Christ from a contentious heart.[/i] And even more fearful is that we had treasured up for ourselves wrath against the day of wrath and the righteous judgment of God.

[i]Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?[/i] This is a sobering question. Obviously the person has to feel that preaching against certain sins pardons their own. This is serious error. [i]Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?[/i] Here we find the ROOT of the judges error. They [u]interpreted[/u] God's goodness, forbearance, and patience as a stamp of approval for what they were doing. Those 'riches' of God's goodness were not extended to this judge that they might judge others from a higher pedastal, but that they themselves might see God's goodness and be led to the very [u]repentance[/u] they had been preaching to others.

Preaching without grace is evidence that the preacher does not fully appreciate what God has done for them.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. [u]The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.[/u]

This is the attitude of a person who cannot appreciate mercy; [i]have patience with me, and I will pay thee all...[/i]. And because the person does not fully appreciate the enormous and insurmountable debt they were forgiven, they take their neighbor 'by the throat' when they ought to have lived a life that exemplified [u]grace[/u]. They received grace freely, they should have given it freely. There should be a tenderness to the offering of grace and mercy. There should be a welcoming and non-begrudged attitude that issues forth from a person who recognizes the debt they were freed from.

Even a dog will not come to his bowl to eat if you BARK at him to get him to come. GET OVER HERE AND EAT THIS YOU [u]WRETCHED[/u] DOG YOU!! The dog may well have tasted and seen that the food was good, but the harsh attitude of the owner caused the dog to go into a nervousness that foiled his appetite, period. Imagine preaching the Gospel like that? You WRETCHES GET OVER HERE AND TASTE AND SEE THAT THE LORD IS GOOD!! Well, is it any wonder that folk dont respond?

Conviction of Sin will [u]lead[/u] a person to the Cross and not DRIVE THEM from it. The Gospel is an invitation.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/7/14 9:01Profile





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