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stantheman
Member



Joined: 2007/5/1
Posts: 16
Adelaide, Australia

 Re:

what about the 1000s of people saved because of TACF? not mentioning the ministries that came out of there and the people they got saved.
people healed and their lives changed. read 'Jesus and beelzebub'.
satan does not permanently heal people and change them to lead Christ-centred lives.
TACF arn't aginst us, which means they're for us. let's get back to the scriptures. even micah in the OT (read the book) intersceeds for God, it's much more dramatic than our dog barking TACF friends.

also, God is the most passionate being in the universe, he'll do anything for us to love him. He want us to love him, he loves us in return.

Quote:
Again it wasn't forced or unnatural, but with a sense of great joy and euphoria. In fact (and mark this) it was the nearest thing to the feeling I'd had when first born again. The sense of blessing was tremendous.


would a loving father do that? or a hating enemy seaking to destroy us and have us go to hell?
here is come complex theology that is consistent throughout the whole bible: God is Good. joy, happiness is good. devil is bad, depression, sadness is bad.
depression and sadness are not from God. neither is joy from the devil. the devil wants to ruin our joy. please read my previous post.


_________________
Stan

 2007/5/6 9:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:

stantheman wrote:
what about the 1000s of people saved because of TACF? not mentioning the ministries that came out of there and the people they got saved.
people healed and their lives changed. read 'Jesus and beelzebub'.
satan does not permanently heal people and change them to lead Christ-centred lives.
TACF arn't aginst us, which means they're for us. let's get back to the scriptures. even micah in the OT (read the book) intersceeds for God, it's much more dramatic than our dog barking TACF friends.

also, God is the most passionate being in the universe, he'll do anything for us to love him. He want us to love him, he loves us in return.
Quote:
Again it wasn't forced or unnatural, but with a sense of great joy and euphoria. In fact (and mark this) it was the nearest thing to the feeling I'd had when first born again. The sense of blessing was tremendous.


would a loving father do that? or a hating enemy seaking to destroy us and have us go to hell?
here is come complex theology that is consistent throughout the whole bible: God is Good. joy, happiness is good. devil is bad, depression, sadness is bad.
depression and sadness are not from God. neither is joy from the devil. the devil wants to ruin our joy. please read my previous post.

Dear Stantheman

...The Lord is able to bless [i]in spite of[/i] devilish confusion and the counterfeit. He will bless what He can of our works, and have mercy and even truly heal folks who go for this "blessing" in ignorance.

Remember Balaam, the false prophet, greedy for personal gain, who was hired to curse Israel? The Lord stepped in and [i]made[/i] him bless them instead! God can even do that with “Toronto”. But it is basically a false blessing, and can have the same [i]effect[/i], in the end, as a curse - but for God’s mercy. Some have actually needed prayer for deliverance after this experience. The Lord probably blesses, heals and saves through it more by way of damage limitation than to prove it’s of Him.

Friends of mine, an elderly and wise Christian couple, went to a Jim Sepulveda meeting. Her husband (like us, not understanding the dangers, though otherwise very mature in Christ) went forward for prayer and went down, as everyone did who was prayed for. She said that there was something strange and “wrong” about him for several days after this experience, although he felt blessed at the time.

[i]Of course[/i] Satan is able to counterfeit joy, peace, healing etc! What of those who claimed to do many miracles etc, yet the Lord says "I never knew you, Depart from me, you workers of iniquity"?

What I experienced was counterfeit. It was so near to the real thing that it seemed the same at the time. Mainly because I was still ignorant of Satan's devices in this particular area. Yet the Lord protected me from harm, and used the experience to show just how subtle the Enemy can be.

Many who are involved in New Age, TM etc can testify that they have experienced similar, or maybe greater, times of great euphoria. People can also have similar experiences under hypnosis, and even get phobias dealt with, or be freed from bondage to smoking etc. Are you saying that New Age and TM are therefore of God?

[i][b]A fisherman presents the fish with what seems a tasty fly. But there's a hook hidden in it. That's how you catch fish![/b][/i]


Pray for discernment, Brother. Ask the Lord to make it clear to you if we are right or not. Be willing to face at least the possibility of having been deceived. That's how we grow in the Lord.

I didn't have discernment at the time of this experience, and can't blame you for believing these things are OK. The opposite, long-face, rigid, disapproving sort of "Christianity" is wrong too. So is lack of trust in a loving Heavenly Father - as you say.

But the fact remains that much of "Toronto" is not of God. He showed me that very clearly. Lesson learned, no harm done, as I said.


Love in Him


Jeannette

 2007/5/6 10:35
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Just a note, this is a almost 4 year old posting.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/5/6 10:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Just a note, this is a almost 4 year old posting.

OH! Does that mean we have to start a new one???

The issue is obviously still a live one, though more recent manifestations apparently include gold dust and "angel feathers".

Jeannette

 2007/5/7 6:44
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

stantheman wrote:
what about the 1000s of people saved because of TACF? not mentioning the ministries that came out of there and the people they got saved.
people healed and their lives changed. read 'Jesus and beelzebub'.
satan does not permanently heal people and change them to lead Christ-centred lives.
TACF arn't aginst us, which means they're for us. let's get back to the scriptures. even micah in the OT (read the book) intersceeds for God, it's much more dramatic than our dog barking TACF friends.



Stan,

Having been one that was not only involved, but also a strong advocate and promoter of such phenomena, I feel I can speak into this, with a degree of unbias. I had a conversation with a Muslim on the street, one day, and he pointed to the changed lives, as evidence of the truth of his religion. Having met and spoken to many devout atheists (by that, I mean dedicated to the "belief in disbelief"), who attribute the beginning of their moral integrity to the day that shed aside their "superstitious belief in God" [[i]sic[/i]], and accepted the fact that they are alone in the universe.

There are countless people, tonight, who have "joy in their lives" as the result of substance abuse. And their are many broken lives as a result of the euphoria of "Toronto" style Christianity. I know MANY personally, who are now not only dubious of the phenomena, but God Himself. They woke up one day, realising that they were caught up in the momentum of what was going on around them, and then question everything else as well.

May I suggest the following audio, and articles for consideration:
Art Katz -
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3324]Holiness or Blessing[/url] (Audio)
[url=http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/writings/articles/articles_artkatz/Holiness_or_Blessing.htm]Holiness or Blessing[/url] (Text)
[url=http://www.benisrael.org/site_content/writings/articles/articles_artkatz/Lying_Signs_and_Wonders.htm]Lying Signs and Wonders[/url] (Text)

J Jacob Prasch -
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=11890]Midrash - First and Second Born[/url] (Audio)
[url=http://ditc.podomatic.com/enclosure/2006-04-02T15_13_31-07_00.mp3]The Spirit Of Truth And The Spirit Of Error[/url] (Audio) - Note: You might recognise the reference to fellow South Australian, Andrew Evans (unnamed), as the former AoG chairman.
[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/charismatic_laughter.htm]Charismatic Laughter (Part 1 of 2)[/url] (Text)
[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/charismatic_laughter_part_2.htm]Charismatic Laughter (Part 2 of 2)[/url] (Text)

Paul Gowdy (Former Toronto Vineyard Pastor) -
[url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/discernment/church_issues/toronto_deception.htm]The Toronto Deception[/url] (Text)

The underlying issue to be raised is that John exhorts us to "test the spirits, to see if they are of God", while "Toronto Blessing" proponents say "Don't question it, just go with it." You can't have it both ways.

If you think this is about "God can move however He wants", then consider that all this has occurred as the result of people "seeking a sign" (which Jesus said that a "wicked and perverse generation" will do). Brownsville AoG's pastor, John Kilpatrick, actually walked into his church, and left the keys on the pulpit, saying something to the affect of "God, if you don't send revival, I quit." The following Sunday, after Steve Hill talked the frustrated pastor into letting him preach on Fathers Day's morning service (which was an unheard of thing, for Kilpatrick), 'revival'[[i]sic[/i]] broke out. Seems to be that Kilpatrick wasn't content with God doing things how He was doing it. After all, Sunday night prayer meetings, for years on end, should equal "something" happening.

I'm not asking you to agree with everything that is being offered here, only that you consider these guys words, weighing them in the light of Scripture.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/7 8:16Profile
stantheman
Member



Joined: 2007/5/1
Posts: 16
Adelaide, Australia

 Re:

i know of non-toronto related pastors that arn't pastors anymore, some don't even go to church anymore.
http://www.irismin.org/

Rolland and Heidi Baker regularly speak at toronto. they oversee over 6000 churches and take care of over 3000 children. their site is outdated
http://www.irismin.org/p/background.php


Rolland speaks of a time when he was younger and went to toronto for a month. revival till early morning, they wake up late the next day, only to just line up at toronto. He says he didn't get into one theological argument over the whole time.

If TACF is demonic, then http://ibethel.org/ is also. i God is doing creative miracles there all the time.
now i have a sermon for you:
http://www.ibethelmedia.org/sotw/force.php?file=ThePowerisintheMessage24kbps.mp3&id=60

while i listen to the ones you posted, please listen to this one :)


_________________
Stan

 2007/5/7 10:12Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

stantheman wrote:
while i listen to the ones you posted, please listen to this one :)



Deal :-)


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/7 10:31Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

stantheman wrote:
If TACF is demonic, then http://ibethel.org/ is also. i God is doing creative miracles there all the time.



I want you to notice that I have been careful not to use the word "demonic" for three reasons:
1) Peoples understanding of demonic tends to imply a kind extreme overt evil that is directly influenced by "Satan & Co".
2) Demonic possession, etc is a serious thing, not to be pinned onto everything that is disagreed about.
3) It could be possible that it is something that is sent "from God", but that God is "not in it" (as the fire and the earthquake that God sent to Elijah, before speaking with His "soft still voice").

Apart from this, I am open to to the possibility of being wrong, however I believe that God will honour my zeal in desiring to seperate the "holy from profane", being cause of something which is "deeply sensual", as possibly being "woldly and carnal". I for one do not dictate how He choses to move, whether or not it appears that He is doing nothing, I am keenly aware that He is at work.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/7 10:41Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

stantheman wrote:
i know of non-toronto related pastors that arn't pastors anymore, some don't even go to church anymore.
http://www.irismin.org/



I think you missed my point. I do not judge a work of God based on its temporal success/failure (I don't suppose you have heard Paris Reidhead's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url] yet?), I was merely using your standard of measure to show it's irrelevance. This is one of the problems with the "church", particularly here in Australia, it is so caught up on success, that it ignores failure. Have you ever noticed that the Bible leaves nothing out? It graphically includes successes and failures of these men of God, and at times calling these "failures" righteous, of men after God's own heart? It is integrity from woe to go, and God requires that His church be likewise.

In light of this, when was the last time you saw a pastor get up and say, "I need to apologise. Last week we prayed for Sister Betty and she testified that she was healed, however, once the euphoria of the moment wore off, she realised that she was mistaken."? I for one have never, however in spite of this, there is testimony after testimony of "healings", and one must wonder how many of them are "Sister Betty" going up again in hope that this time is for real? Figures and statistics shouldn't impress us, nor should they be the basis of our endorsement. Otherwise we should cast aside AW Tozer, Paris Reidhead, Art Katz, Keith Daniel, to name but a few.

On top of that, your standards of measuring success can be applied to cults and false religions. Christianity isn't the fastest growing religion in the world, Islam is. Does that make it true? Of course not. Wiccans see "healings" regularly. Does that mean we should all become witches? To quote Leonard Ravenhill, "Every good Mormon speaks in tongues." If signs and wonders are the basis of recognition, then we are better forget about John the Baptist, Martin Luther, John Wesley, George Whitfield, Johnathan Edwards, Charles Finney, and Charles Spurgeon.

Note that I am in no way a cessationist. I have seen true healings first hand, however I have also seen many false ones. I can point you to close personal friends, who ascribed to what i would consider to be proper orthodoxy, that have fallen away. All that proves is that we need to be careful, lest we think we stand. The thing is, I am not pointing to my, or others success as the basis of endorsement. In fact, I am but the basest of men, speaking out of concern.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/7 11:15Profile
stantheman
Member



Joined: 2007/5/1
Posts: 16
Adelaide, Australia

 Re:

well, if something is not from God, and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic.
>>3
Yes but i bet God speaks to people at toronto directly, not just through these earthquakes of falling over etc.

LittleGift says that it didn't feel right.
I don't think it felt right to a lot of people in the bible.
disciples when Jesus was crucified (they wern't for it at any stage)
Acts 2 when the disciples got filled with the spirit. A lot of people didn't think that was right.
Or when i was introduced to unconditional grace that is lavished on us through the blood of Jesus. I'm still getting my head around that.
God doesn't have to feel right, if he felt right to the world, the world would all be christians. Or perception on what feels right is based on our earthly expereince.

by the way, i like your attitude, he who seeks the dorr will be open. I'm also seeking with you, bro. You know, in dubai some unsaved people say to themselves "I just want to know the truth about God". I kid you not, people show up to them and say "I can take you to a place where you can find out about Jesus". they take them to churches, and they dissapear. the people never see them again. they're angels taking people to churches!


_________________
Stan

 2007/5/7 21:35Profile





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