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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: Tasting death


Xtian wrote:
The original post assumes that there is still a future end times, mark and anti-christ ahead of us.

What if it already happened in the past?

Matthew 16:28
"Truly I say to you, there are [u]some of those who are standing here who will not taste death[/u] until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Hey Xtian,
If I was to say "there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste [b]haggis[/b] until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." would that mean that if someone was force fed haggis, then Christ has come back? The point that most eschatologists miss here is the word "taste". According to W.E Vine, tasete here is translated from the Greek word:
geuo (1089), “[b]to make to taste[/b],” is used in the middle voice, signifying “to taste” (a) naturally, Matt. 27:34; Luke 14:24; John 2:9; Col. 2:21; (b) metaphorically, of [b]Christ’s “tasting” death, implying His personal experience in [u]voluntarily[/u] undergoing death[/b], Heb. 2:9; of believers (negatively) as to “tasting” of death, Matt. 16:28; Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27; John 8:52; of [b]“tasting” the heavenly gift (different from receiving it)[/b], Heb. 6:4; “the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,” 6:5; “that the Lord is gracious,”

The issue here would appear to be one of [b]willing participation[/b] more than the [b]experience alone[/b]. This view is considerably reinforced when the verse is placed into the context of what Christ is actually saying here,

Matthew 16:24-28 (KJV)
[b]24[/b] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309), to will, to wish, implying volition and purpose - W.E. Vine} come after me, let him [b]deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me[/b].
[b]25[/b] For whosoever [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309)} save his life shall lose it: and whosoever [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309)} lose his life for my sake shall find it.
[b]26[/b] For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
[b]27[/b] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[b]28[/b] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which [b]shall not taste of death, till they see[/b] the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Note that this seems to display a "cause and effect" senario, with "will" leading to "shall". Paul uses similar terminology in 2 Tim 3:12:
Yea, and all that [b]will[/b] {thelo (2309)} live godly in Christ Jesus [b]shall[/b] suffer persecution.

Anyone who studying Greek wil notice that the wor "shall" has been inserted into the sentance, in order to help us "non-greeks" understand it. Try reading the sentances without the shall, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Basically, Christ and Paul are saying, "If you [b]will[/b] choose something, the there will be an ensuring result, that [b]shall[/b] happen." The "shall" isn't chosen, the "will" is.

Relating this back to Mat 5:28, it could be said that there are some who will not [b]choose[/b] to "taste" until Christ returns to establish His Millenial Kingdom. But at that point, it will be too late to "lose (your) life for (His) sake" in order that you may (find) it.
Granted this is only one verse but its from Jesus Himself. So unless there are some original disciples still hanging around, I have to contend that all this end times stuff was fulfilled in AD 70 when God punished Israel for its sin and rejection of Christ.

I tend to lean away from the "futurist/pre-trib" stnce that is prevailent in most of christendom today. However, preterism had too many whole. Like for instance, the presence of the "wailing wall" in Jerusalem, in light of Luke 21:5-6 and the conspicuous absense absence of a return to Israel with brokeness and weeping, that comes after the "time of Jacob's trouble" and the coinciding anihilation of the remainder who are not part of "the remnant that will be saved" (for more on this, check out [url=]The Holocaust, where was God?[/url] by Art Katz, for an adequate treatment of this theme).

For myself, I tend to lean toward a fusion between the kind of "Progressive Historicist" views typical of [url=]Edgar F Parkyns[/url] and the "Messianic Madrashic" views of [url=]J Jacob Prasch[/url]. I've noticed that God rarely allows "His things" to be easily defined (isn't that right, all you "modified Arminians" out there). Be careful of living in the extremes. Sometimes when it comes to choosing between "black and white", black is a choice in greys, where white is the thing that has never been considered. Eschatology is best explained like this. It has to be precise, because God pre-ordained it. Mind you, that doesn't guarantee that you can speculate what will happen, or tick off what already has. The point is, as Parkyns puts it, is to always "know where you are in the book" (if you don't get that, listen to Parkyns;-)).

Aaron Ireland

 2006/6/8 7:30Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Aaron
very interesting indeed...

Farai Bamu

 2006/6/8 12:09Profile

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