| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: Is coming national ID 'mark of the beast'? | | Quote:
There is a prophecy in the Bible that foretells a time when every person will be required to have a mark or a number, without which he or she will not be able to participate in the economy
We already have that... it's called a "Social Security Number".
Krispy |
|  2006/5/11 11:22 | | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
RobertW wrote:
It seems that the consequence will be death for those who 'refuse' this mark. I am not aware of any exceptions in the Revelation for those who receive it, so it would appear to me that anyone taking it would 'know' what they were doing. I am open for input though.
Isn't it funny how no matter how hard we try, there always seems to be a liitle bit of the "doctrine of the masses" that creeps in and hides amongst the truth of Christ? :oops:
Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)
Perhaps this is the consequence that I was refering to (although it wasn't what I had in mind at the time ;-))
_________________
Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/5/12 19:45 | Profile |
| | Re: | | CJaKfOrEsT posted:
Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)
Stever's response:
I can't find any scripture to support your hypothesis, as much as I would like to find some. It seems to me that this is an end time choice- choose this day who you will serve- Antichrist or Jesus Christ. If you choose Antichrist, and you receive his reward while you are still alive on this earth. Your reward? To Worship him as your Lord, and you will not be killed. The end result of your decision? You get to spend eternity in eternal torment in Hell (that was origianally prepared for Satan and his fallen anges) with Satan and his demons.
Your reward if you choose Jesus Christ as Lord? Immediate death by beheading, and immediate presence with Him in Heaven. Your reward? Is Jesus Christ, a person, who you will spend eternity with in your glorified resurrected body of flesh and bone.
Luke 24 tells us:
38. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE.
40. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42. And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43. And he took it, and did eat before them.
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God bless,
Stever :-) |
| | 2006/5/12 20:16 | | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
Stever wrote:
CJaKfOrEsT posted:
Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)
Stever's response:
I can't find any scripture to support your hypothesis, as much as I would like to find some. It seems to me that this is an end time choice- choose this day who you will serve- Antichrist or Jesus Christ. If you choose Antichrist, and you receive his reward while you are still alive on this earth. Your reward? To Worship him as your Lord, and you will not be killed. The end result of your decision? You get to spend eternity in eternal torment in Hell (that was origianally prepared for Satan and his fallen anges) with Satan and his demons.
Stever,
It would seem that we have been going head to head on a few issues lately. It would appear that you are happy to seperate our disagreements from our personalities, as things have remained light (at least I hope that the feeling is mutual in this regard ;-)).
My hypothesis was slightly loaded. Obviously those who have received the mark will not participate in the Millenial Reign, at least in an "administrative" role anyway, however as Robert correctly pointed out, there is no direct statement to say that those who receive the mark will be excluded from heaven, leaving room for the possibility of a later repentance. (Mind you personally I wouldn't want to bet on it though, because the Word gives us no assurances either way).
If we were to consider the historicist stance (which I tend to lean toward) there is an excellent historical illustration.
Historicist's believe that the "mark" is a "spiritual mark" as is the mark that the man with the inkhorn put on the foreheads of the Israelites that "sight and cry for the abominations" that were done in the temple, as discribed by by Ezekial. Parkyns, for one believed that this alluded to the "sign of the cross" the the Roman Catholic's baptised their converts with, because in the dark ages one could not trade, or even own possessions if the were even suspected of heresy against the Papal Church and the Holy See.
I think it was Bishop Riddley who recanted his testimony against the Roman Church, and later repented of his recantation and was burned to the stake. When he was burned, he asked that the hand that signed his recantation could be burned first, and this was the hand that betrayed him.
If Parkyns was right, then Riddley perhaps could be an example of my earlier hypothesis of exclusion from "reigning with Christ" in the Millenium, but entering into heaven as on "snatched from the fire" (mind the pun).
Note that Revelation is the only book of the Bible that has a curse attached to anyone that either adds or subtracts from its contents. A wise man would admit that their speculations are just that (hence my use of the words "hypothesis" and "perhaps"), except where there is a clear statement to be read.
Blessings.
_________________
Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/5/14 4:06 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi Adam: I have given this a tremendous amount of thought over the years. In regards to the Mark of the Beast, we are warned in Revelation that ANYONE who takes this Mark will receive God's wrath. That to me eliminates any "wiggle" room.
REV.14:9: AND THE THIRD ANGEL FOLLOWED THEM, SAYING WITH A LOUD VOICE, IF ANY MAN WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND RECEIVE HIS MARK IN HIS FOREHEAD, OR IN HIS HAND,
10: THE SAME SHALL DRINK OF THE WINE OF THE WRATH OF GOD, WHICH IS POURED OUT WITHOUT MIXTURE INTO THE CUP OF HIS INDIGNATION; AND HE SHALL BE TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB:
11: AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDETH UP FOR EVER AND EVER: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND WHOSOEVER RECEIVETH THE MARK OF HIS NAME.
REV.16:2: AND THE FIRST WENT, AND POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE EARTH; AND THERE FELL A NOISOME AND GRIEVOUS SORE UPON THE MEN WHICH HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST, AND UPON THEM WHICH WORSHIPPED HIS IMAGE.
No one who holds the Bible to be the inspired Word of God will doubt, but that here before us is portrayed the MOST TERRIFYING THREAT IN ALL SCRIPTURE; A PROPHECY OF UNPARALLELED IMPORTANCE TO EVERY SOUL ON EARTH. [Also, this Prophesy is specific to anyone who takes the Mark of the beast].
Today, thanks to the "Left Behind" series, we have experienced a Paradigm shift, that clouds our understanding of this specific end time prophesy. You might want to go to the websites at the bottom of the page.
I really have to disagree with you on this one. I see no wiggle room, and no hope for anyone that takes the Mark of the beast, based upon Scripture, and the specific prophecy that relates to it (the Mark).
"The Mark of the Beast Paradigm shift"
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/mark_of_beast_paradigm_shift.html
"Can a Christian willfully reject God and take the Mark of the Beast?
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/christian_reject_god_and_take_mark.html
"If I was Satan, what would I do?
http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/what_would_satan_do.html
God bless,
Stever :-)
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Quote:
CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:
Stever wrote:
CJaKfOrEsT posted:
Consider this hypothesis though, someone receives the mark, and then later repents and trusts in Christ savingly. WOuld that meant that he would be excluded from participation in the "Millenial Reign of Christ" (Rev 20:4)
[Long post snipped- read entire post below]
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| | 2006/5/14 11:00 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Marked men | | Recalling past conversations on this and am of the same notions of Robert as he also has expressed elsewhere, well expressed here;
Quote:
Personally, I think a lot of factors are coming to play also that are leading us to something of the sort. I refuse to spiritualize this text as it seems to me to be meant literally. Excesses in prophecy circles have not changed my view. I think we need to keep an eye on this.
Especially that last line. It is more than slightly interesting that the technology is available and already in effect though only limited at the present moment. The ideals of technology has always been towards smaller, more powerful and cheaper, one only has to look at the brains behind what we are typing on here and marvel at the differences just in the last ten years alone.
But to throw another thought into the mix for consideration it dawned on me yesterday listening to a message, this passage and how it may or may not apply;
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
For a sense of letting the air out a bit here, some might enjoy the following commentary;
[b]Gen 4:15 -
The Lord set a mark upon Cain[/b] - What this mark was, has given rise to a number of frivolously curious conjectures. Dr. Shuckford collects the most remarkable. Some say he was paralytic; this seems to have arisen from the version of the Septuagint, Στενων και τρεμων εση, Groaning and trembling shalt thou be. The Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel says the sign was from the great and precious name, probably one of the letters of the word Yehovah. The author of an Arabic Catena in the Bodleian Library says, A sword could not pierce him; fire could not burn him; water could not drown him; the air could not blast him; nor could thunder or lightning strike him. The author of Bereshith Rabba, a comment on Genesis, says the mark was a circle of the sun rising upon him. Abravanel says the sign was Abels dog, which constantly accompanied him. Some of the doctors in the Talmud say that it was the letter ת tau marked on his forehead, which signified his contrition, as it is the first letter in the word תשובה teshubah, repentance. Rabbi Joseph, wiser than all the rest, says it was a long horn growing out of his forehead!
Dr. Shuckford farther observes that the Hebrew word אית oth, which we translate a mark, signifies a sign or token. Thus, Gen_9:13, the bow was to be לאית leoth, for a sign or token that the world should not be destroyed; therefore the words, And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, should be translated, And the Lord appointed to Cain a token or sign, to convince him that no person should be permitted to slay him. To have marked him would have been the most likely way to have brought all the evils he dreaded upon him; therefore the Lord gave him some miraculous sign or token that he should not be slain, to the end that he should not despair, but, having time to repent, might return to a gracious God and find mercy. Notwithstanding the allusion which I suppose St. Paul to have made to the punishment of Cain, some think that he did repent and find mercy. I can only say this was possible. Most people who read this account wonder why Cain should dread being killed, when it does not appear to them that there were any inhabitants on the earth at that time besides himself and his parents. To correct this mistake, let it be observed that the death of Abel took place in the one hundred and twenty-eighth or one hundred and twenty-ninth year of the world. Now, supposing Adam and Eve to have had no other sons than Cain and Abel in the year of the world one hundred and twenty-eight, yet as they had daughters married to these sons, their descendants would make a considerable figure on the earth. Supposing them to have been married in the nineteenth year of the world, they might easily have had each eight children, some males and some females, in the twenty-fifth year. In the fiftieth year there might proceed from them in a direct line sixty-four persons; in the seventy-fourth year there would be five hundred and twelve; in the ninety-eighth year, four thousand and ninety-six; in the one hundred and twenty-second they would amount to thirty-two thousand seven hundred and sixty-eight: if to these we add the other children descended from Cain and Abel, their children, and their childrens children, we shall have, in the aforesaid one hundred and twenty-eight years four hundred and twenty-one thousand one hundred and sixty-four men capable of generation, without reckoning the women either old or young, or such as are under the age of seventeen. See Dodd.
But this calculation may be disputed, because there is no evidence that the antediluvian patriarchs began to have children before they were sixty-five years of age. Now, supposing that Adam at one hundred and thirty years of age had one hundred and thirty children, which is quite possible, and each of these a child at sixty-five years of age, and one in each successive year, the whole, in the one hundred and thirtieth year of the world, would amount to one thousand two hundred and nineteen persons; a number sufficient to found several villages, and to excite the apprehensions under which Cain appeared at this time to labor.
~ Adam Clarke
Something else that came to mind was the star of David given to the Jew's during the Holocoust, though that is the inverse of the matter at hand...
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2006/5/14 12:53 | Profile |
| | Re: What is the Mark? | | Stever posts, to add to what Mike had to say:
The Mark of the Beast is not defined in the Bible. In other words, we are not told in plain language what the Mark is. At this point one may be tempted to ask: 1) Why didn't God tell us what the Mark of Beast is? 2) How can He expect His followers to resist receiving the deadly Mark of the Beast if most of them don't even know what it is?
These are fair questions; but you will soon realise that God has not left us (His people) in hopeless ignorance in regards to this matter. In the Bible He has given us several meaningful clues, which if followed through will guide the interested believer to the correct understanding of this puzzling prophecy.
The Most High has set before mankind a spiritual riddle, the answer to which is so amazing that once you see it, you will never again wonder what the Mark of Beast is.
Let's examine just two scriptural clues and follow their lead.
Two Clues
1.To begin with the Mark is described in Revelation 14:11 as The Mark of his name.What the Beast's name is we are not told; but it would appear from this clue that the Beast's mark is in some way related to his name.
2.Secondly we are told in Revelation 13:16 that the mark is to be placed in the foreheads or right hands of those who accept it.
Let's consider these two clues.
There exists in Scripture a fundamental principle regarding the origin and understanding of Bible prophecy. The principle is mentioned in this passage:
2 Peter 1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Bible prophecy is not the product of human intellect or will power. It is a gift from God. Holy men of old were inspired by the Holy Spirit: or, as the text says, "they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
In exactly the same way, the understanding of Bible prophecy is also not a matter of human intellect or will power. One must be given the understanding just as the prophets of old were given the prophecy. In other words, spiritual eyesight is also a gift from God. This means that without the Holy Spirit it is virtually impossible to correctly understand, appreciate or even believe a Bible prophecy. Understanding must come from above either through:
1) Direct revelation, which few of us are privileged to receive, or
2) From the Bible itself, and then only if the Holy Spirit opens our minds to understand.
As far as this generation is concerned, we must look to the Bible to interpret itself: for none of us can compare with the prophets of old who had direct revelation.
Bearing these basic facts in mind, we will now seek to solve the mystery of the Mark of the Beast by comparing Scripture with Scripture.
When we do this we see that God also places His Name (His seal) in the foreheads of those who follow Him.
Rev. 7:2: And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3: Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev.14:1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
After examining these verses about God's name, one cannot fail to see a similarity with those verses containing those two clues about the Beast's Mark or name. For here in this prophecy we are given a preview of two groups of people.
1.Those who accept the Father's Name or Seal in their foreheads. (Rev.7:2-4, Rev.14:1)
2.And those who accept the Beast's Name or Mark in their foreheads. (Rev.13:16)
In other words, the Mark of the Beast and the Seal of God are both names and are both placed in the foreheads of the people who receive them.
Here we can clearly see that the Beast is attempting to duplicate or counterfeit the Almighty God's program by similarly inscribing his mark, his name in people's foreheads. This passion to counterfeit the Almighty is a typical Satanic trait: for he never tires of counterfeiting the handiwork of God: not just to be like Him - which would be admirable - but to replace God.
These facts leads us to the conclusion that the Beast's Mark is simply a counterfeit or substitute of God's signature and seal. It follows that any information which we obtain concerning the Seal and Signature of God will obviously help us decipher the mystery of the Mark of the Beast.
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God bless,
Stever |
| | 2006/5/14 14:09 | |
| | Re: The "Mark" of Cain- What is it? | | Stever posts:
I once heard an excellent Bible Study about the "Mark of Cain".
What was the Mark of Cain? GIANTISM
The study was quite intense, going all of the way back to Cain and forward to the time of the world wide flood. The study indicates that Ham, the son of Noah, was married to one of the daughters of Cain, therefore she was a giantess.
When we read in Genesis about Noah cursing Ham's son Canaan, and we study it closely, we realize that it is not a curse, but a Prophecy of Canaan and his seed (children) and their future:
Genesis 9:25-27
"25. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26. And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."
The Bible study then went into detail about where each of the sons traveled to and settled as a Nation. Ham, his wife and Canaan ended up in the promise land, and it was called the land of the Canaanites, the land of the Giants. All of the various tribes in this land descended from Canaan, Ham's son.
It is a detailed Bible study that I will have to listen to again, and follow up with more Scriptural detail.
For generations we have all wondered what the "Mark of Cain" really is. Some have thought that the Mark was making Cain's skin black. Ask any black man or woman that you know if the color of their skin ever saved them from harm. The answer has to be no. But Giantism would provide an advantage. The Jews were afraid to enter into the promised land, into the land of the Canaanites because of the "Giants in the Land".
Numbers 13
30. And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
31. But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
32. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
33. And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Joshua 12:8 tells us who occupied the Promise land before their arrival:
8. In the mountains, and in the valleys, and in the plains, and in the springs, and in the wilderness, and in the south country; the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites:
God bless,
Stever :-)
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| | 2006/5/14 16:11 | | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Marked men indeed | | Thanks Stever,
This has given pasue to go back and re-read and reflect on just what exactely the scripture states. Somehow it is easy to overlook the fact that there are two marks and more interesting that the mark of the beast is more descriptive, at least in name, number, placement.
Some brief observations;
[i]... [b]we[/b] have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[/i]
"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels,..."
The "we" being the angels of course.
The other interesting note is that this seal is only in the [u]foreheads[/u] of the servants of [i]our God[/i]. Stressed that as another interest, [i]'our'[/i], the things one can miss reading too fast through scripture. It is wonderful to note that not only are these incredibaly powerful beings but they are 'our' emissaries here in this instance to set apart and seal, mark out the Brethren [i]before[/i] leveling their destruction.
Of course this all dependant on how one might look at it, but it is high honor indeed regardless to be marked as servants of God.
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2006/5/14 16:16 | Profile |
| | Re:The Sins of the Canaanites | | Stever posts:
What exactly were the sins of the Canaanites?
Leviticus 18 tells us:
Leviticus 18
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.
3. After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4. Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.
5. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.
6. None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord.
7. The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8. The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.
9. The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
10. The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
11. The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
12. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.
13. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.
14. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
15. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
16. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.
17. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18. Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19. Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
20. Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.
21. And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.
22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25. And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27. (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28. That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.
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God bless,
Stever |
| | 2006/5/14 17:05 | |
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