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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Stever wrote:
It seems very clear to me that those that take the "Mark of the Beast", either on their foreheads or hands, take it knowingly, with the understanding that they are worshiping antichrist. The taking of this mark will be for all of those that are lost sinners and deceived by Satan during the Tribulation.



I think that there is room for ignorance, on the part of the receiver of the mark, as to it's ultimate consequence. Note that the text say "he causeth all", not "they will choose". Also note that the beast "deceiveth them all", which means that there is the possibility that he has "tricked them" regarding the implication of the reception of the mark.

Note that Israel had deceived themselves into believing that worshipping the Golden Calf was a valid expression of worshipping Jehovah (they actually named it Jehovah), suggesting that they were unaware that they were worshipping Satan. Also, consider Samson, who "knew not" that the Lord had left him, until it was too late.

Perhaps it is a matter of being careful not to embrace the world, as you may not get another chance to repent of it, and we won't know when God says, "Enough is enough."


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/5/10 17:58Profile









 Re:

Stever responds to CJaKfOrEsT:

Revelation 20:4-5 tells us that the believers did not accept the mark of the beast. I have to believe that the Holy Spirit, that resides within the believer, provides the spiritual discernment and knowledge on what to do (i.e. not take the mark, and suffer death by beheading):

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which [b]HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS[/b]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

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I personally don't think we have to fear the mark. It has to be voluntary. We have to want to worship the beast (and accept him as Lord), and want to accept his mark.

The same goes for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. It has to be voluntary, no one can force us or deceive us to become a Christian, no one can force us to worship Him. He knows our hearts, and judges us as saved or lost by our hearts.

At the the Great Tribulation--many will choose the beast, and worship him and live. Also, many will choose Jesus Christ, and worship Him, and be killed. If the Christian is truly saved, he/she will not be deceived by the Antichrist or his minions, in my opinion.

God bless,

Stever :-)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

Stever wrote:
It seems very clear to me that those that take the "Mark of the Beast", either on their foreheads or hands, take it knowingly, with the understanding that they are worshiping antichrist. The taking of this mark will be for all of those that are lost sinners and deceived by Satan during the Tribulation.



I think that there is room for ignorance, on the part of the receiver of the mark, as to it's ultimate consequence. Note that the text say "he causeth all", not "they will choose". Also note that the beast "deceiveth them all", which means that there is the possibility that he has "tricked them" regarding the implication of the reception of the mark.

Note that Israel had deceived themselves into believing that worshipping the Golden Calf was a valid expression of worshipping Jehovah (they actually named it Jehovah), suggesting that they were unaware that they were worshipping Satan. Also, consider Samson, who "knew not" that the Lord had left him, until it was too late.

Perhaps it is a matter of being careful not to embrace the world, as you may not get another chance to repent of it, and we won't know when God says, "Enough is enough."

 2006/5/10 23:21
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Stever wrote:
I personally don't think we have to fear the mark.


I agree.
Quote:

It has to be voluntary.


i don't agree that this is clear. Although I see where you're coming from, I believe that 'worshipping the beast' and 'receiving the mark' are two separate things, but those who worship the beast will be "compelled" to receive the mark (whatever it is).
Quote:

The same goes for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. It has to be voluntary, no one can force us or deceive us to become a Christian, no one can force us to worship Him. He knows our hearts, and judges us as saved or lost by our hearts.
....
If the Christian is truly saved, he/she will not be deceived by the Antichrist or his minions, in my opinion.



I only agree in part here. While it is true that one cannot "accidently accept Christ as Lord" one doesn't need to worry about accepting Antichrist as lord because we are all born under his lordship. Considering Christ statement about being wary of the "many Christs" that will and have already appeared, I believe that there will be many if not all who will bow down to Antichrist, believing him to be Christ. After all, consider those who already bow down to the Anti... I mean ... Viccar of Christ today. They think that their bowing down to Christ, or at least his perfect representative.

As I said earlier, what if the mark has already been and gone? Or, what if it came and stayed? Perhaps we are being protected from it in ignorance, as a child is protected from "ritual satanic abuse" or "pedophilea"? You do realise that God doesn't have to let us know what He is protecting us from, even if He has spelled it out to us in criptic terms, just in case it become so close to us, that it's dangerous?

Food for thought, from one "fallen head" to another. :-)


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/5/11 7:20Profile









 Re:The Rapture

Stever posted:
The same goes for accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. It has to be voluntary, no one can force us or deceive us to become a Christian, no one can force us to worship Him. He knows our hearts, and judges us as saved or lost by our hearts.
....
If the Christian is truly saved, he/she will not be deceived by the Antichrist or his minions, in my opinion.


CJaKfOrEsT responded
I only agree in part here. While it is true that one cannot "accidently accept Christ as Lord" one doesn't need to worry about accepting Antichrist as lord because we are all born under his lordship. Considering Christ statement about being wary of the "many Christs" that will and have already appeared, I believe that there will be many if not all who will bow down to Antichrist, believing him to be Christ. After all, consider those who already bow down to the Anti... I mean ... Viccar of Christ today. They think that their bowing down to Christ, or at least his perfect representative.


Stever responds to CJaKfOrEsT:

Have you ever considered that Christ was addressing Jewish believers when he made the remarks we have been discussing?

If you believe in the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation takes place, then the Church is not on the scene during the Tribulation. Who is on the scene? Jews who are not believers, and are still looking for their Messiah, as well as Non Jews who hate God and have rejected Christ. With this as a given (for me anyway) it is easy for me to see that Christ is talking to Jews that come to belief in Him during the Tribulation, as well as non-believing Gentiles who have also come to belief in him during this time.

Luke 21:7-38 becomes clear to me, with the above understanding. This is a description of Jews, as well as Gentiles that believe in Him during the Tribulation:

7. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8. And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11. And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13. And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19. In your patience possess ye your souls.
20. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26. Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30. When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
37. And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Since I do believe in the pre-Tribulation of the Church I see the above as having no reference to me or other believers that will not have to go through God’s poured out wrath on an unbelieving world.

God bless,

Stever :-)

 2006/5/11 9:40
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I think that there is room for ignorance, on the part of the receiver of the mark, as to it's ultimate consequence. Note that the text say "he causeth all", not "they will choose".



It seems that the consequence will be death for those who 'refuse' this mark. I am not aware of any exceptions in the Revelation for those who receive it, so it would appear to me that anyone taking it would 'know' what they were doing. I am open for input though.

God Bless,

Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/11 9:41Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

I like seeing this kind of information just strengthens my faith knowing that what the Word says is coming to pass, we all should be rejoicing when we read anything that the word says will come to pass, and not be afraid at all.


_________________
Bill

 2006/5/11 10:28Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

In terms of accepting the mark of the beast, there will come a time where coersion wiil play a part in promoting this acceptance.

I think about the debates in our nation, that currently speak to defining what constitutes torture. There are those who are against torture for any purpose. Then there are those who believe that torture can be used or justified.

I believe one day, those who are given the choice to take or not the mark of the beast will also be exposed to torture in one form or another.

Do you see how the philosophies of men who rely on pragmatism today will one day impact those who will have to make a choice between satan and Christ.

There is no turning back, there is no turning back...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/5/11 10:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Another thought along this line, I heard today that the nation of China requires that children in 6th grade begin to learn English. Soon this requirement will be changed to 3rd grade age students.

English is the language of the world on the internet. With this development what examples in Scriptures come to mind?

There is nothing new under the sun...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/5/11 10:50Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do you see how the philosophies of men who rely on pragmatism today will one day impact those who will have to make a choice between satan and Christ.



Especially as christianity is pigeonholed in the same category with other 'fundamentalist' religions. Maybe it would be better to distinguish between true and false converts. A believer in 'name only' will be little trouble to the plans of the enemy.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/11 11:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
English is the language of the world on the internet. With this development what examples in Scriptures come to mind?



God confounded the languages at Babel as a preventive measure against the spread and severity of wickedness. Scriptures? "As it was in the days of Noe..."


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/5/11 11:08Profile





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