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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


Where the problem comes in, is that the church is a corporation where power and authority become a lust for control and dominion.

Unfortunitely you're right here, church has become big buisness, often times, but not always, shrouded in a cloak of covetousness, But even in that the Word of God says that the heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord and like rivers of water He turns it which ever way He wills.


 2006/5/2 16:15Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


Hi Rich,

You asked, quote: Can God truly build His kingdom if we are getting in the way?
I was speaking of ministry gifts, I said,
“Bro. Onesimus,
I agree with you that all the ministry gifts should be in operation in the body of Christ.
I think most would agree that they are not. We could discuss many reasons for this, but it really falls upon man. We get in God’s way”.
Rich, what we see happening, is God, allowing the apostate church to wallow in its pride.
How? By believing that the right man, the right program, the right method, and the right special teaching, ( like some kind of new revelation from God) will cause some great move of God.
When I say its not about us I refer you to His Word.

Isaiah 55:6-11
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [10] For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If the Lord willed it, He could simply speak His church into existence, instead, His Word says,
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

So you see He Will Build His Church, man, nor hell itself, cannot prevent Him.

So you see, its all about Him, and His Church. He will build it by His Word.
He will bring His Will to pass, not any man, or any plan devised by man.

Genesis 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

Psalm 37:5
Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

Isaiah 46:11
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

You see, what ever He purposes in His heart, He brings to pass.
The only way we become a part of this is to,
Get on our knees and pray and seek His face, and ask for His Word to accomplish His Will in us.

1 Cor. 1:26-31
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: [27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence. [30] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: [31] That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the

This also answers ‘O’s question, “ Will He not use ordinary men to testify of Him?”

Only by The Word of God,
Rev. 19:11-16
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yes, gentlemen, it is the corporate church, it is the pride of all the so called Christians who have brought the world into the church, because they are gutless wonders, to afraid to go into the
World and compel them to come to the Kingdom. Its man that has heaped to themselves teachers
having itching ears, teaching doctrines of devils.
Just remember something, these churches and these men only exist because of the demand of the people to have them. They have been deceived and they believe the lie.
Jesus said,
Matthew 15:12-14
Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? [13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. [14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

So, let them alone. We can do one thing and one thing alone, stop complaining and start praying.

You will see THE LORD JESUS CHRIST BUILD HIS CHURCH, in spite of us.



 2006/5/2 17:44Profile

Joined: 2006/5/2
Posts: 2


Mr. Dohzman

I agree with you on this and much that has beared witness with my spirit.


But even in that the Word of God says that the heart of the king is in the hand of the Lord and like rivers of water He turns it which ever way He wills.

I belive this is in the book of Psalms. May you please quote the chapter and vs?

 2006/5/2 17:44Profile

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

my favorite scripture in that chapter though is the next one:

Pro 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
I love that scripture!!!!


 2006/5/3 0:33Profile

Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 285
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico


When we go to foreign mission sites, we find that corporate church is not so prevalant. There, they are not interested in your theological degree, but in the anointing on your life and the truth of God in your mouth. Even though faith is much stronger because of need, western influence still robs the remnant church of blessing God intends to bestow upon it.
There is a remnant church in the USA, thank God. It is not controlled by man, but by His Holy Spirit. There are hundreds, even thousands that are serving God and their fellowman without recompense. You won't read about them in "Christianity Today", but you will hear all about them in Heaven when they get their reward. Alleluia.
I have found in online fellowship, there is more freedom to operate in whatever calling God has given. Prophets are heard right along with the Evangelist and Apostle. Even Pastors are forced to move in the Spirit or get left in the dust. I like that.
Here, we cannot make tainted value judgements by the corruption of natural sight. We only get to see what God sees, the heart. For out of the abundance of the Heart, the mouth speaketh. Here, all we see is what comes out of the heart. I can't judge you by what kind of home you live in, what you drive or how you dress. There is little or no offering of money, so I can't value you because of that? All I want to see is what I see here, the value of what is in your heart, and allow you a view into mine. If your light illuminates dark places in me, praise God. I want to be all light and life, His light, and His life. So I welcome and value what all have to say. Together we are growing in Chist Jesus, in faith and hope in Him crucified. That is a good thing. Praise God.


Lahry Sibley

 2006/5/3 10:43Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3323



Ruach34 wrote:
Maybe it was Him that allowed these things to take place and where we think we are getting in the way we maybe actually fulfilling a piece of God's puzzle.

Well said Rich, I have always believed this and until someone here on earth can read Gods mind and know exactly why he does what he does we are wasting our time and time is short, I would also say unless you have some kind of unique power within you that tells you Gods next move why concern yourself? I figure I will spend my time doing what I know God wants me to do without to much figuring out, and that's to hit the streets and look for the lost and plant seeds that will hopefully bring them into his kingdom, can't go wrong doing that and it's a whole lot less confusing than trying to figure out why the Church is the way it is I will leave that one for God to work on. :-)


 2006/5/3 11:00Profile

Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296


Why are not the 5 ministers side-by-side, each complementing the other. I know all these ministers exist, either hidden or on huge projection screen TVs each week, I can't say, but they do exist.
I have seen this at work in the church I attend; One may show more growth or maturity and another is jealous, one may show a greater ability to preach and another is put down. One may show humility and another boldness and the latter is accepted because of supposed annointing. A prophetic word may be uttered but it is rejected as too troublesome and it may shake up the congregation. There appears to be one man, in most church buildings called a pastor, that takes the lead role. (whether that role is assumed or given by God is another matter) That one man takes it on himself to lead as he sees fit...if something or someone bumps the flow it is rejected and cast out. Kinda like what happened to the healed blind man that was preachin' to the Pharisees and was kicked out of the temple.
One man is often touted as the only one able to recieve the vision from the Lord and then lead 'his' people in that direction.
I write this from my own experience...
Why don't I leave, you may ask? To leave is easy.
I desire a true transparency where one man/woman does not have all the answers but depends on like-minded believers and co-leaders to grow in the faith and inspire others to do the same, to follow Christ as they do. Only God can do that kind of thing in the midst of believers, to make us utterly nothing, humble servants, not boasting in any education or annointing we may possess.
O, God, make us to know our utter wretchedness so that you can finally perfect in us your utter holiness! Out of that kind of man/woman can come gifts that bless the body of Christ, and the 5 fold ministry will be manifested so that we as believers can grow into the full stature of Christ. Might it take a persecution of a kind we in US have never known. We are under governmental tyranny/judicial tyranny even now. Might that be increasing...

Blessed in God's sight is the death of His saints.


 2006/5/3 17:51Profile

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