Hi LogicI did ask for your explanation in your own words. You did not show scriptures that show that the Law is the light, you showed scriptures and came to your own conclusions, which are not neccecarily bad, I just disagree with them. The reason I insist on using your own words to explain, because it fleshes out where you are coming from, rather than just quoting numerous scriptures which may or may not tie together.

First of all, "The Law," means many things in the scriptures. There is the decalogue, there is ceremonial law, there is civil law. There seems little doubt that when "the law,' is refereced in Scripture, that the writers took it as a totality. Now, for instance, the law firmly established that an adulterer should be stoned to death. Also an eye should be given for an eye.

Any attempt to say that the writers were only talking about one part or another will simply fail. I suggest that you study "the royal law," which James references. This is the law of the heart, written by God Himself. If we follow that law, the witness of Jesus through the Holy Spirit, then we fulfill all the "commandments," of Jesus as referenced in John 6 only the English translation is "words."

Logic this is a big subject. If you want to think about it more, think about John chapter 8. Jesus clearly explains to "the Jews," and believing Jews at that, that their Father is not Abraham, but the devil. In Romans 4:13 Paul writes "For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath."
Therefore Logic, if anyone in the Old Testement sought righteousness through the Law or works, or both, they would not find grace, it would be debt. But unless one keeps all of the law, then one is a debtor, sinner, condemned by the law. Yet, it is by faith that we find grace. Romans 4:16 "Yet it is by faith, that it might be according to grace." Calvary is grace, Calvary came first. Therfore, by the grace of Calvary, we are empowered to exercise faith and follow God and find grace and mercy. If one looks to the law, even in the Old Testement, then one finds judgment. The judgment of course would be righteous because the Law (decalogue) is the law and it is perfect, yet the weakness is us for we are imperfect. So the righteousness that has to be sought, is the righteousness that Abraham achieved through faith. Faith in the OT, faith in Jesus in the New. God knows the heart, and God knows the heart of the people in the OT. Yet Jesus had to descend into the earth, upper hades, and preach to those people of faith, those people with a heart to hear Him. Yes indeed, it was faith at the beginning, it was faith in the middle, and now in the latter days it is still faith, that light, that witness that glows from the heart of every circumsised person, not circumsised in body, but circumsised in heart. ...............Frank

appolus wrote:

Hi Logic
We have been talking about what the light of the Old Testement was. Not "a light," but the light. You can be a light and I can be a light but we are not "the light." What do you think people did before the decalogue? Was there no light? You have to address these issues if you are to find what was the overarching light in the Old Testement. Just as faith has many definitions, depending on the context, so does light. So, because you found a scripture or two that says that the law is "a light," certainly does not prove your point. I absolutely agree that the decalogue, highlighted, shone a light, acted as a light to highlight the true nature of sin. Again, its job was to expose sin. It was not to bring people to salvation or righteousness, it was to show people thier true nature. Again I say , the just live by faith, justice does not come through the law, Old or New. So, life comes through faith, the realization of sin , the job of the 10 commandments, leads to death. This is not a bad thing, this is a good thing..........Frank

PS .......God is love, Jesus is God, Love fulfills the law,
Jesus fulfilled the law, Jesus is the Light of the world, Light is law."

This may be your own words Logic, but it sounds like an excerpt from a Chatechism. I say that with a smile on my face :) Love ya man, keep on diggin , I think we are a lot closer than you think.

O.K. I can agree with every thing you say here.

I was talking about "A" light not "THE light".

Could you agree that GOD Himself was "THE Light" in the old testament?
[b]Psalm 27:1 [/b][color=990000] The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?[/color]

Jesus is the light in the new.

Hi Logic
It is a great thing when two brothers can agree. Yes, I agree that God Himself was the light of the Old Testement. Iron sharpening iron.....Frank

This is very interesting, If I may share what I have seen in the scripture without interfering with your discussion. In the Old Testament, as you have said it was God Himself who was the moving force. Christ was here for 33 years and the only time we see The Father and the HOLY Spirit are at the baptism of Jesus Christ, by John, and that to confirm that Jesus was the Son. Then at Pentecost it was God the Holy Spirit that came to do the work of God. Would this be considered a dispensation of time? I hope that is not a bad word. If it is, sorry. So God The Lord in Old Testament, God the Lord and Son at the beginning of the New Testament, and God the Holy Spirit after the Comforter has come. Only One at a time dealing with man in different spaces of time.

In Christ: Phillip

_________________
Phillip

Hi Phillip
No, its not a dispensation. There are three disticnt persons of the Trinity. God did not manifest as the Son, then manifest as the Holy Spirit. Jesus , the Son, has been with the Father since before time. God the Father speaks when Jesus is baptized and the Holy Spirit descends , here we see all three of the trinity. Jesus only worked as directed by His Father. Jesus was completely dependent upon His Father. Jesus did the will of His Father in the garden. The Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness. This is certainly not one manifestaion at a time of a oneness God, this is three distinct personalities found within the one God, the mystery of the trinity. When Jesus cried out from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me," He was not crying out to Himself, He was crying out to His Father. So, today, it is the work of Jesus on Calvary, inspired by the love of God and carried out by the Holy Spirit that leads us. Jesus is the word, the Holy Spirit magnifies Jesus and Jesus brings all glory and honor to His Father. A perfect harmony.............Frank