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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does god know the future?

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MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re:

Ryan,
I haven't had much chance to give this the time in deserves, in the light of your response to my post, I have another couple of questions for you.

Do you think that God didn't forsee the rebellion of satan and the angels before it happened? Do you think that He is surprised by anything that happens on a daily basis? Do you not think that He already knows the outcome of this discussion even though it hasn't reached its end?

I will be gathering the Scripture to answer your questions.


_________________
Melissa

 2006/4/6 12:06Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Did God create time?

Quote:

If God created time then before He created it, time could not exixst. This would be impossible because no duration could exist.



The concept of time is the measurement of how long it takes to get between two points. Since God does not change ever, He cannot be measured, and therefore is outside of time. God simultaniously experiences the past, present, and future, all that the same time. If such seems a little difficult to conceive, imagine if you were examining a timeline on a single sheet of paper that spanned all of history. Such is what time is like for God.

Time is not an attribute of God, for if time were an attribute of God, we would be saying God changes. Time is no more an attribute of God than the earth is an attribute of God. Both are His creation.

If God exists "in time," then God is therefore a slave to time, and time therefore is something that contains God. But God cannot be contained by time.


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Jimmy H

 2006/4/6 12:20Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Prayerbone

Quote:

hi all,i guess running along side this question is if he knows the future why pray? there's vairous scripture that could imply that God does change is mind by are actions or prayers Jermiah being one 26:13



well well well!!! bro prayerbone this is an excellent question! now God knows the future so why [i]should[/i] we pray. we should pray to get involved in what the Lord is doing. what are some of the prayers we pray? we pray a lot but the vast majority of it is garbage, foolishness, not fit to be called prayer. the essence of prayer and indeed the thing which the Lord wants us to grasp is pure prayer and perfect prayer before Him is prayer which is according to [u][i][b]HIS[/b][/i][/u] will and not our own. this sacrificing of our own will (which mind you is still goverened by His own, again the mechanics of this are unwieldy) is what is a pleasing aroma to Him in terms of prayer. This is why we have to pray according to the Holy Spirit of God because He KNOWS AND WILL PRAY ONLY THE WILL OF GOD. Youve no doubt heard it it said it is impossible to please God without the Holy Spirit and this is why. The Lord's Holy Spirit says and does only what He hears from Heaven and intercedes for us on that same basis, according to the will of God, so to follow the Lord's Holy Spirit is indeed to do the things which are perfect in God's sight.

God's mind is not changed from one thing to another by our prayers. now let me qualify this. God is not strongarmed into doing anything. case in point, Terri Sachaivo had half or more of American beseeching the Lord to spare her and it didn't happen. When the devil went up to heaven to present his case to hurt job God said this to him

from job chapt 2

[b]Job 2:1-6 1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy F12 him without cause. 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.[/b]

now it would seem that God was hustled into letting satan have his way but the truth of the matter is that the Lord is displaying His sovereignty and manifold wisdom to the enemy and his minions by showing him that they have no power over job save for what God allows (this is again echoed when Christ told Pilate that he had no power over Him save for what was given him from heaven)

God is not strongarmed into anything, nor can anyone convince Him He is wrong or is in need of repenting of any kind. There is the story of Hezekiah who was told he was going to die (i think it was by Jeremiah) and he wept and asked the Lord 10 more years and the Lord granted him this extension. during this time many reforms were made in an effort to bring the nation of israel back to God. now the Lord was going to do this anyway but He required Hezekiah to get involved in a deeper level in all this and so Hezekiah was compelled to seek the Lord.

bro prayerbone we pray to get involved in what the Lord is working out. all this which is happenning, the building up of the Church and so on is all to display the Lord's manifold wisdom to the principalities and powers of the air to let them know that they have no power! we have to realize that this whole thing is far beyond just you and me but it is God showing Himself as He in fact is not only to us (if we will see) but to the powers of the air and to satan himself, God showing Himself to be ALL-SOVEREIGN.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/4/6 12:22Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re:

Although I haven't found a Scripture that says "I, The Lord of Heaven and Earth knew that when I made you humans, you would rebel against me," I have found some scripture that shows that He knows the heart and mind of man before the man himself.

Psalm 139 (King James Version)
1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2Thou knowest my down sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:


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Melissa

 2006/4/6 12:36Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ryanelijah
[b]Hi MSeaman. I would love to see some scripture that god knew man would rebel against him. That sounds schitzophrenic to me. No offense to you or god but why would he create us if he knew we would rebel against him. That makes no sense at all?[/b]

while what you asked may seem schitzophrenic i sense not guile in you asking but that you're lookin for the truth. not sure you'll like the truth though. now i'm not aware of any scripture which specifically says that the Lord knew man would rebel but it seems obvious to me that He did because He already had a plan for salvation which had to do with the making of sacrifices until the ultimate sacrifice was made on the cross. God is God and does as He pleases whether we like and approve, or not and disapprove of His doings, this then speaks to the SOVEREIGNTY of God which we are so out of touch with. untill we grasp the Lord's sovereignty in all things we'll see things amiss.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/4/6 12:39Profile









 Re: does God know the future?


Hi ryan and prayerbone.

Ironman made an excellent response here.

Quote:
well well well!!! bro prayerbone this is an excellent question! now God knows the future so why should we pray. we should pray to get involved in what the Lord is doing. what are some of the prayers we pray? we pray a lot but the vast majority of it is garbage, foolishness, not fit to be called prayer. the essence of prayer and indeed the thing which the Lord wants us to grasp is pure prayer and perfect prayer before Him is prayer which is according to HIS will and not our own. this sacrificing of our own will (which mind you is still goverened by His own, again the mechanics of this are unwieldy) is what is a pleasing aroma to Him in terms of prayer. This is why we have to pray according to the Holy Spirit of God because He KNOWS AND WILL PRAY ONLY THE WILL OF GOD. Youve no doubt heard it it said it is impossible to please God without the Holy Spirit and this is why. The Lord's Holy Spirit says and does only what He hears from Heaven and intercedes for us on that same basis, according to the will of God, so to follow the Lord's Holy Spirit is indeed to do the things which are perfect in God's sight.

I have found it very helpful to pray aloud (when I'm alone), so that I have the extra input of what is going in through my ears... Why? Because I believe that part of why we have to pray, is so that [i][b]we know[/b] [/i] what God's will is. So that [i][b] we hear[/i] [/b]what we are asking Him (sometimes again and again), and start trimming our sails to catch the wind of His Spirit.

 2006/4/6 12:48









 Time is endless

Quote:

The concept of time is the measurement of how long it takes to get between two points.



I hope this was a joke.

God is depicted in the Bible as One to whom time is real and essential. All of the time words are used to describe His actions in the same way as used for man. And the words for eternity have proven to be not of a timeless nature, but one of endless time. All of this is not to suggest that there are not some problems philosophically with the concept of unending time. The primary problem is how to conceive of a Being who had no beginning and yet for whom time is real.

Time is a function of personality. It is the center of our thoughts, feelings, and volitions. Every thought, emotion, or choice elicits a new sequence. One thought follows another. One act succeeds another. Thoughts and actions move in successive order, one right after another. Therefore, time is intrinsic to personality. Often, time is defined as a structure that exists externally or outside of God. If time were extrinsic to God, we must object to His being a subject of it. However, any attribute that is intrinsic to the nature of God must not be viewed as a limitation. Because anything that is binding on God internally from His Being is simply by definition who He is and what He is like. For example, God cannot lie. Intrinsic to His nature is this character quality. This is a limit only in the sense that it is derived from within. It is not a limit in the sense of being controlled or deprived from without. Hence, time is an empowering attribute that serves God's love for creating new things.

 2006/4/6 20:24
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: Time is endless

bro Freecd

Quote:
God is depicted in the Bible as One to whom time is real and essential. All of the time words are used to describe His actions in the same way as used for man. And the words for eternity have proven to be not of a timeless nature, but one of endless time. All of this is not to suggest that there are not some problems philosophically with the concept of unending time. The primary problem is how to conceive of a Being who had no beginning and yet for whom time is real.



time is real (it is His creation) to God but then again a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. this says to me it is under His total control, subject to Him. in the Spirit, past present and future are all before God. The fact that His workings in the past and in the present and future are written as you say in the same way as used for man, says all this was written for our benefit. since we can't comprehend life without/outside of time (eternity) the Lord made it so that His word was written with that in mind.

like you said the problem is in trying to perceive a being who had no beginning and yet time is real to Him. Time is the Lord's creation and He is not subject to it, hence everything is in His own time. the finite mind can't grasp eternity because all we perceive to be real is finite. we will not understand that on this side and to try to seems futile to me.

who knows the mind of God?
:-?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/4/7 12:31Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Time is endless

If God is confined to time, then He has a beginning. But the Scriptures say, "In the beginning, God created..." Time did not exist before creation. Time is the measurement of how long it takes an object to get from point a to point b. Since God does not change, there are no measurements that could be done on God. God is immeasurable. To say that time is a virtue of God is to say God is measurable, and changes.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/4/7 15:47Profile









 Re: Does God know the future?

Hi freecd,

I shall be applying myself to a proper reply to your posts, in a few hours. Meantime, I'd like you to look at Young's Literal Translation. I have not combed it for other examples, but I happen to remember this one, and would place it beside two other scriptures.

In the first, you will see that the PROPHET is speaking in the past tense. Then, when the prophecy is coming pass, the account is being given in the present continuous. But in the KJV, which I will leave you to examine, the prophecy is given in the future tense.

YLT 2 Kings 3
16 and he saith, `Thus said Jehovah, Make this valley ditches--ditches; 17 for thus said Jehovah, Ye do not see wind, nor do ye see rain, and that valley is full of water, and [u]ye have drunk[/u]--ye, and your cattle, and your beasts. 18 `And this [u]hath been[/u] light in the eyes of Jehovah, and he [u]hath given[/u] Moab into your hand, 19 and ye [u]have smitten[/u] every fenced city, and every choice city, and every good tree ye cause to fall, and all fountains of waters ye stop, and every good portion ye mar with stones.' 20 And it cometh to pass in the morning, at the ascending of the [morning] -present, that lo, waters are coming in from the way of Edom, and the land is [u]filled[/u] with the waters, 21 and all Moab have heard that the kings have come up to fight against them, and they are called together, from every one girding on a girdle and upward, and they stand by the border. 22 And they rise early in the morning, and the sun hath shone on the waters, and the Moabites see, from over-against, the waters red as blood, 23 and say, `Blood this [is]; the kings have been surely destroyed, and they smite each his neighbour; and now for spoil, Moab!' 24 And they come in unto the camp of Israel, and the Israelites rise, and smite the Moabites, and they flee from their face; and they enter into Moab, so as to smite Moab, 25 and the cities they break down, and [on] every good portion they cast each his stone, and have filled it, and every fountain of water they stop, and every good tree they cause to fall--till one had left its stones in Kir-Haraseth, and the slingers go round and smite it.

My second scripture is from Exodus 3 (YLT)
11 And Moses saith unto God, `Who [am] I, that I go unto Pharaoh, and that I bring out the sons of Israel from Egypt?' 12 and He saith, `Because I am with thee, and this [is] [b]to thee[/b] the sign that I [u]have sent[/u] thee: in thy bringing out the people from Egypt--ye do serve God on this mount.' 13 And Moses saith unto God, `Lo, I am coming unto the sons of Israel, and [u]have said[/u] to them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you, and they have said to me, What [is] His name? what do I say unto them?' 14 And God saith unto Moses, `[b]I AM THAT WHICH I AM[/b];' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, [b]I AM hath sent[/b] me unto you.' 15 And God saith again unto Moses, `Thus dost thou say unto the sons of Israel, Jehovah, God of your fathers, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this [is] My name--to the age, and this My memorial, to generation--generation. 16 `Go, and thou [u]hast gathered[/u] the elders of Israel, and [u]hast said[/u] unto them: Jehovah, God of your fathers, hath appeareth unto me, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, I have certainly inspected you, and that which is done to you in Egypt;

My last is from Ephesians 1, of course...
3 Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world,

In a nutshell, 'time' is God's servant, to accomplish that which He designs for it. We perceive time as sequential, because of the limitations built into our experience by the type of creation which God has made us. But He Himself is always NOW.

We may attribute to God, our own limitations, (that is, our sequential existence) but that in itself is no proof that God is like us in that respect. I will say more tomorrow.

 2006/4/7 20:00





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