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drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 887
Campbell River, B.C.

 Associating With Errant Ministries

"Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake..." Jeremiah 23:9

My post was originally going to be much longer, but I shortened it because I don't want to name any names (1 Timothy 5:19.)

My question is this: Why do sound ministers/ministries associate with known false teachers, and in some instances endorse them? Why can the sheep see the danger when the shepherds can't?

It always reminds me of Jehoshaphat's friendship with Ahab. Jehoshaphat was a godly man that befriended Ahab out of a misguided notion that they had similar goals.


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Nigel Holland

 2022/11/30 22:31Profile
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 Re: Associating With Errant Ministries

Brother,

The issue is that many are in their own "camps" and for people to even cross over and have fellowship with brethren from different denominations this type of accusation can be thrown around.

Also another issue can be the repentance of someone will not be recognized or accepted by believers. Carter Conlon ministered on this important subject many years ago:

Beware of the Angry Watchmen by Carter Conlon - Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuAfKBLTz2M


To have fellowship with those who deny major tenets of Christianity and our beliefs of course we should not seek to have fellowship with them. But on other issues that are important but not "damning" it takes wisdom to know where to draw the line.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2022/12/1 12:43Profile
Lysa
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Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3562
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Associating With Errant Ministries


I hear you Drifter, I don't understand it either. Jehoshaphat even called for the one prophet who spoke truth and he still didn't listen. It baffles me.

It could be our ego's. Because he said he would go with Ahab BEFORE the prophet was called for, so his reputation was on the line.

That could be the problem today, these ministers align themselves with people BEFORE they pray about aligning with them and then they have a reputation they think they need to protect.

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
~ John 12:25

This is just one aspect, but have hope!! There is a remnant that want to hear the voice of the Lord and will follow it no matter what.

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2022/12/1 14:51Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2079
Joplin, Missouri

 Re: Associating With Errant Ministries

Paul went to Mars Hill where every conceivable religion of the Greeks in that day was represented and where people came just to hear something new. He stood up and proclaimed that he could tell them about their unknown God.

I agree that I see many ministers associating with ministries that have some obvious problems doctrinally. But I think we have to be careful not to adopt a one size fits all attitude toward this. Paul might have been brought to task for associating with the false religions on Mars Hill. But in reality, he was bringing truth in the middle of falsehood.

I also think that we must be careful about denouncing ministries as false. Who makes that determination? With what doctrinal understanding do we make this declaration? I agree that there are some real problems with some groups and some doctrines. But there are also those who are just getting some things wrong, but have a real walk with God and are about building His kingdom. I guess I have to ask where we draw the line between a false teaching or teacher and a person who is true, but missing it to one degree or another. Just some thoughts that I have had on the matter.


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Travis

 2022/12/1 15:43Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
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 Re:

I agree Greg. I try to look past denominational lines (I even accept Roman Catholics if they are truly born again; I also read the "mystics", like Madam Guyon, Richard Rolle etc.) I don't care if someone is a Calvinist or an Arminian (or something in between), I don't care if they are pre, post or a-millenial, or pre, mid, or post tribulation. All I care about is that 1. People are born again and, 2. They are following the real Jesus.

The 2 major threats to the true church I see are,

1. The signs and wonders gospel. Jesus specifically warned that this would happen in the end times (Matthew 24:24), and that "a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign." (Matthew 16:4.) Phony christians can perform miracles (Matthew 7:22); even Judas performed miracles (Luke 10:17.) The false prophet in the great tribulation will use signs and wonders to deceive people (Revelation 13:13,14.) We are told we will know people by their fruits (Matthew 7:16), not the miracles they can (or seem to) perform.

Miracles are NOT the central focus of the gospel. All they do is point people to the One that can perform the greatest miracle, the regeneration of the spirit.

I praise and thank God for every miracle done by Him in His name. Believe me when I say I tread carefully on this subject. Any miracle my God does, I would never attribute to the devil's power.

2. The prosperity gospel. This self centered "gospel" that masquerades as christianity has infiltrated countries all around the world. Unsaved people mock the true gospel message because of this. We are commanded to separate ourselves from anyone preaching this message (1 Timothy 6:3-5.)

I know there are people that are truly following Jesus the best way they know how that are in churches that teach bad theology. Just look at Samuel being raised by the backslidden priest Eli. I love these brothers and sisters and try to gently point them to sound teaching.


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Nigel Holland

 2022/12/1 21:01Profile
drifter
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Posts: 887
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Thank you Lisa. Your words encourage me.

Some time ago, the Lord told me that He would purify His church before His second coming (in the scriptures and in prayer.)

I think you are right. Our decisions can be disastrous if we don't pray about them. I think the ministers who make these bad decisions would be surprised at how forgiving their congregations could be, if they would only admit their faulty judgment and not try to safeguard their reputations.


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Nigel Holland

 2022/12/1 21:09Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 887
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I agree Travis, and the question you posed is one I anticipated, viz., who sets the standard as to what is false, and what doctrinal understanding are we using?

Only people with the Holy Spirit can properly understand God's Word. The false teachers don't know they teach falsehood! They are under delusive influences. I think true and false teaching is axiomatic. Only someone in deep deception would say, for example, that God wants everyone to be rich. That is so clearly against biblical teaching that it takes a slick con man to patch together a frankenstein's monster of scriptures that seem to say that. To someone walking close to Jesus, if they hear something erroneous, they immediately know something is wrong; the only way they can be deceived is if they purposely ignore the Holy Spirit's warning to them.

I think it would be safe to say that no one would have thought Paul was in league with the Epicureans or the Stoics on Mars Hill. Like you said, he was bringing truth in the middle of falsehood.


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Nigel Holland

 2022/12/1 21:28Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2079
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Nigel: Agreed! We only know what we know. So if we are wrong, we don't know it until our eyes are opened. Then we have the choice to continue in the wrong, or change. That is why fellowship with other believers, even those who disagree with you, is vitally important. Allow your viewpoint to be challenged. Seriously question whether you have it right or not. I am not suggesting getting bound up in self-doubt. That is a terrible place to be. I am saying that we can be too sure of ourselves and stubbornly stick to our guns when we really ought to be humble and allow our perspective to be challenged. There are absolute truths of scripture from which we cannot back down, EVER. But there are also areas where we think we have it put together and maybe we don't.

Quote:
Miracles are NOT the central focus of the gospel. All they do is point people to the One that can perform the greatest miracle, the regeneration of the spirit.



Drifter: True statement. I have never heard, though, of a signs and wonders gospel. I guess you are referring to some whose entire ministries are devoted to the promotion of signs and wonders?

I am glad that you did not discount miracles. They do point ot Jesus, and that is the point, right? They are never something to pursue for their own sake, nor are they proof of spirituality. They are some of the fruit, however, that is borne from the life of a believer that is walking in the power of the Holy Spirit.


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Travis

 2022/12/2 9:01Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2570


 Re:

I agree with the way the moderator Greg stated it in his reply.

Francis Chan suffered from this. Just because he went to a few places involved in bits of some controversy and spoke he was castigated by all kinds of Christians on social media. Going somewhere and sharing would not necessarily seem to mean you agree with everything that ministry believes. Francis Chan is not the only one.


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David Winter

 2022/12/2 16:21Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 4278
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 Re:

I believe and pray that false prophets and teachers would be exposed. I have witnessed on these forums true men of God being slandered because they have erred in some teaching, not denying the foundations of the faith.

Signs and wonders can be counterfeited by the enemy, but true signs, wonders, and miracles accompany the preaching of the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit. This is happening today, especially in nations where the people are hungry and have nothing but God to rely on. As things in the world grow progressively worse, there will be another great revival and awakening throughout the world and in this nation. Many churches and pastors will resist the next move of God, but there will be multitudes of sinners and backsliders that will come to the Lord. God is now raising up houses of prayer all over the world.


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Mike

 2022/12/4 8:24Profile





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