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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

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 Re:

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Intrepret this verse, is it talking about than or something that has not occured yet and is still in our future?

Keep in mind the words, "fulfilled" and "at hand".

 2006/3/24 12:10









 Re:

Quote:
that's what the word says and i guess i'm foolish enough to believe it as is.


Since we are talking about Jew and Gentile. Let me put this verse to you and you interpret it.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Keep in mind the words, "there is no difference"

 2006/3/24 12:18
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Karl
the passage you mentioned is a refence actually to the fulfillment of an O.T. prophecy. check out matthew henry's commentary on this section

[b]Here is, I. A general account of Christ’s preaching in Galilee. John gives an account of his preaching in Judea, before this (ch. 2 and 3), which the other evangelists had omitted, who chiefly relate what occurred in Galilee, because that was least known at Jerusalem. Observe, 1. When Jesus began to preach in Galilee; After that John was put in prison. When he had finished his testimony, then Jesus began his. Note, The silencing of Christ’s ministers shall not be the suppressing of Christ’s gospel; if some be laid aside, others shall be raised up, perhaps mightier than they, to carry on the same work. 2. What he preached; The gospel of the kingdom of God. Christ came to set up the kingdom of God among men, that they might be brought into subjection to it, and might obtain salvation in it; and he set it up by the preaching of his gospel, and a power going along with it. Observe, (1.) The great truths Christ preached; The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. This refers to the Old Testament, in which the kingdom of the Messiah was promised, and the time fixed for the introducing of it. They were not so well versed in those prophecies, nor did they so well observe the signs of the times, as to understand it themselves, and therefore Christ gives them notice of it; "The time prefixed is now at hand; glorious discoveries of divine light, life, and love, are now to be made; a new dispensation far more spiritual and heavenly than that which you have hitherto been under, is now to commence.’’ Note, God keeps time; when the time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand, for the vision is for an appointed time, which will be punctually observed, though it tarry past our time. (2.) The great duties inferred from thence. Christ gave them to understand the times, that they might know what Israel ought to do; they fondly expected the Messiah to appear in external pomp and power, not only to free the Jewish nation from the Roman yoke, but to make it have dominion over all its neighbours, and therefore thought, when that kingdom of God was at hand, they must prepare for war, and for victory and preferment, and great things in the world; but Christ tells them, in the prospect of that kingdom approaching, they must repent, and believe the gospel. They had broken the moral law, and could not be saved by a covenant of innocency, for both Jew and Gentile are concluded under guilt. They must therefore take the benefit of a covenant of grace, must submit to a remedial law, and this is it— repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. They had not made use of the prescribed preservatives, and therefore must have recourse to the prescribed restoratives. By repentance we must lament and forsake our sins, and by faith we must receive the forgiveness of them. By repentance we must give glory to our Creator whom we have offended; by faith we must give glory to our Redeemer who came to save us from our sins. Both these must go together; we must not think either that reforming our lives will save us without trusting in the righteousness and grace of Christ, or that trusting in Christ will save us without the reformation of our hearts and lives. Christ hath joined these two together, and let no man think to put them asunder. They will mutually assist and befriend each other. Repentance will quicken faith, and faith will make repentance evangelical; and the sincerity of both together must be evidenced by a diligent conscientious obedience to all God’s commandments. Thus the preaching of the gospel began, and thus it continues; still the call is, Repent, and believe, and live a life of repentance and a life of faith. II. Christ appearing as a teacher, here is next his calling of disciples, v. 16–20. Observe, 1. Christ will have followers. If he set up a school, he will have scholars; if he set up his standard, he will have soldiers; if he preach, he will have hearers. He has taken an effectual course to secure this; for all that the Father has given him, shall, without fail, come to him. 2. The instruments Christ chose to employ in setting up his kingdom, were the weak and foolish things of the world; not called from the great sanhedrim, or the schools of the rabbin, but picked up from among the tarpaulins by the sea-side, that the excellency of the power might appear to be wholly of God, and not at all of them. 3. Though Christ needs not the help of man, yet he is pleased to make use of it in setting up his kingdom, that he might deal with us not in a formidable but in a familiar way, and that in his kingdom the nobles and governors may be of ourselves, Jer. 31:21. 4. Christ puts honour upon those who, though mean in the world, are diligent in their business, and loving to one another; so those were, whom Christ called. He found them employed, and employed together. Industry and unity are good and pleasant, and there the Lord Jesus commands the blessing, even this blessing, Follow me. 5. The business of ministers is to fish for souls, and win them to Christ. The children of men, in their natural condition, are lost, wander endlessly in the great ocean of this world, and are carried down the stream of its course and way; they are unprofitable. Like leviathan in the waters, they play therein; and often, like the fishes of the sea, they devour one another. Ministers, in preaching the gospel, cast the net into the waters, Mt. 13:47. Some are enclosed and brought to shore, but far the greater number escape. Fishermen take great pains, and expose themselves to great perils, so do ministers; and they have need of wisdom. If many a draught brings home nothing, yet they must go on. 6. Those whom Christ called, must leave all, to follow him; and by his grace he inclines them to do so. Not that we must needs go out of the world immediately, but we must sit loose to the world, and forsake every thing that is inconsistent with our duty to Christ, and that cannot be kept without prejudice to our souls. Mark takes notice of James and John, that they left not only their father (which we had in Matthew), but the hired servants, whom perhaps they loved as their own brethren, being their fellow-labourers and pleasant comrades; not only relations, but companions, must be left for Christ, and old acquaintance. Perhaps it is an intimation of their care for their father; they did not leave him without assistance, they left the hired servants with him. Grotius thinks it is mentioned as an evidence that their calling was gainful to them, for it was worth while to keep servants in pay, to help them in it, and their hands would be much missed, and yet they left it. III. Here is a particular account of his preaching in Capernaum, one of the cities of Galilee; for though John Baptist chose to preach in a wilderness, and did well, and did good, yet it doth not therefore follow, that Jesus must do so too; the inclinations and opportunities of ministers may very much differ, and yet both be in the way of their duty, and both useful. Observe, 1. When Christ came into Capernaum, he straightway applied himself to his work there, and took the first opportunity of preaching the gospel. Those will think themselves concerned not to lose time, who consider what a deal of work they have to do, and what a little time to do it in. 2. Christ religiously observed the sabbath day, though not by tying himself up to the tradition of the elders, in all the niceties of the sabbath-rest, yet (which was far better) by applying himself to, and abounding in, the sabbath-work, in order to which the sabbath-rest was instituted. 3. Sabbaths are to be sanctified in religious assemblies, if we have opportunity; it is a holy day, and must be honoured with a holy convocation; this was the good old way, Acts 13:27; 15:21. On the sabbath-day, pois sabbasin — on the sabbath-days; every sabbath-day, as duly as it returned, he went into the synagogue. 4. In religious assemblies on sabbath-days, the gospel is to be preached, and those to be taught, who are willing to learn the truth as it is in Jesus. 5. Christ was a non-such preacher; he did not preach as the scribes, who expounded the law of Moses by rote, as a school-boy says his lesson, but were neither acquainted with it (Paul himself, when a Pharisee, was ignorant of the law), nor affected with it; it came not from the heart, and therefore came not with authority. But Christ taught as one that had authority, as one that knew the mind of God, and was commissioned to declare it. 6. There is much in the doctrine of Christ, that is astonishing; the more we hear it, the more cause we shall see to admire it. [/b]

it seems to me that the time had indeed come for the kingdom of God to be at hand. which says to me that the time for revelation of the Kingdom of God had come so men had to repent. it seems to me that the Kingdom is indeed still at hand because for the Kingdom to be established, Jesus must return and Himself establish it.but then the word also says that it is within us. we are seated in high places with Him already however but you will find that even after Jesus speaks these words in the gospels, it is still said in Paul's letters afterward that the day of Christ is at hand and that He is at hand.

another thing to consider is that for Christ and indeed for anyone moving in the Spirit, there is no concept of time in the Spirit. everything, past present and future is before God as 1. it's hard to explain unless one has experienced it. i'm not sure this will help but a few days ago the a friend of mine was in some trouble and he called me asking i pray for him. i agreed and immediately the Lord showed me in a vision his plight. at first i thought i was losing it (i've seen vision before though) because i hadn't made time to pray for him to ask the Lord what the deal was so i brushed it off. the vision kept on coming back then i asked the Lord "ok, i've not prayed or made time to do so for this brother, what is going on?" the Lord's response was that in the Spirit there is no concept of time, it's all before you even though in the flesh i'd not come to that point yet. does that make any sense? if not don't worry about it.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/3/24 12:36Profile
MSeaman
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Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
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 Re:

It seem to me this subject has been threadjacked. I thought the original post was the subject of why the conflict between the Arab and the Jew.

In the Genesis, God promised Israel to the descendants of Abraham, through Isaac. Ishmael was promised to be a great nation, but I don't recall any land promised to them at all (and I just read the passage.)

The Arabs who are Muslims only make claim to the land through the false prophet, Mohammad.

We know that the Bible is the God's revelation to us, the Quran is not because it contradicts, the Bible. It is just another trick of the enemy's to mislead people.

As for whether or not, the descendants of Abraham are still God's Chosen people. Can someone tell me the verse where God told Abraham, I will cut off your descendants after so long because they have rejected me??

What do you guys do with this Scripture in Romans 11:1-6?
I say then, has God cast away His own people? Certainly not! For I am also an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast off His people whom he foreknew. Or do
you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying Lord they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left and they seek mylife? But what does the divine response say to him, I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. Even so
then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Is he talking about the Jews that have accepted Jesus as Savior?

Is this what you are saying Healingwaters?
"Each and every one of us who is a christian is a remnant of Israel,including the Jews that believe Jesus was the Messiah, not Israel literally.
That is why Jesus said in Matt. 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate.
Israel gave up their specialness when they crucified Jesus."

This is a quote from my cousin on how her church views Israel.







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Melissa

 2006/3/24 12:39Profile
IRONMAN
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Karl
if you look at that verse carefull in context it is saying that there is no difference between Jew or greek etc for the same Lord that is over all is rich to whoever calls upon Him. this refers to how the Lord treats us, He will not reject anyone based on whether they are Jew or greek but will bless and save whoever calls on His name. now the matter of the destiny of the Jew and Gentile and how the 2 peoples have different roles in the Lord's plan is a separate matter altogether. you can't use that verse to say that we're all the same and the Lord has the exact same plan for us all coz it's not true. The Lord is working with you and in you and through you in a way different manner than He is with me and the Lord is dealing with the Jews and gentiles in different ways which are separate and yet one somehow in His infinite wisdom as a display of His manifold wisdom to the powers of the air.

tell then Karl, when in Zechariah the Lord says that He will pour out grace on His people and they will look upon Him who they pierced, is the Lord not talking about the JEws specifically? sure the Romans did nail Christ to the cross but at the bidding of the Jewish council. We gentiles have received Christ so why would the Lord then be saying that to us? those prophecies are yet to be fulfilled and if you think the Lord was just talking into the air to fill a book then i don't know what to tell you. The word of the Lord will not come back void but it will acomplish whatever the Lord purposed it to.

brethren let us not boast against the natural branches lest we be cut off...we are wild branches having been grafted in by God's grace and mercy. let us not test the Lord in this matter.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/3/24 12:49Profile
IRONMAN
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 Re:

sis MSeaman
well i guess to some extent the subject has been threadjacked :-P The Lord said of Ishamel that He would be a wild man who would be against everyone. now the bitterness between the Jew and palestinians is that the palestinians are descended from the phillistines and that beef goes waaaaaayyyy back. In truth there will no peace in that region until Christ comes to give it, well save for the 3.5 yr peace during antichrist's reign.

now onto the scripture you mentioned, romans 11. This is what i feel the Lord leading me to get at that the Jew still has a unique place or role in God's plan which the gentile can't fill so there is a separate dealing with the Jew and the gentile even though in truth the 2 are 1. there are yet some old testament prophecies (see Zechariah 12-140 which have yet to be fulfilled and pertain specifically to the Jew.

Israel is still the bride of the Father and has not lost her place, the church is the bride of Christ. Now there is a remnant in Israel, a 1/3 part of her according to Zechariah which shall not be cut off but shall be tried in the fire.

i realize now what was bothering me about some of the responses from bro Jimbob concerning this. it is this spirit of boasting against the natural branches which we are warned not to do by Paul in romans. we are gtafted in so if we boast against the natural branches concerning our salvation and their blindness to the messiah, who's to say that the Lord will not blind us and cut us off. Let us not test the Lord on this and indeed any other matter.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/3/24 14:03Profile
MSeaman
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Joined: 2005/4/19
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 Ironman--

I tend to hold the same view as you do. :-)

If God can break His Covenant with Abraham, then He can break the New Covenant as well. I don't believe that to be true of God. He wouldn't be any better than the false idols other people worship.

It is interesting to see the different views around here.


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Melissa

 2006/3/24 14:44Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re: Ironman--

Ironman,let’s go over this one more time. The Apostles are our final authority on how to interpret Old Covenant prophecies, we need to look to them to discover the meaning behind prophecies of the Old Covenant. I submit to you all that the Apostles found fulfillment of the promises made to Israel in Christ and His Church. Lets compare some scriptures.


Promise made to Israel - Hosea 1:10

1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, `Ye are' the sons of the living God.
Fulfilled in the Church - Rom. 9: 25 & 26

9:24 `even' us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.
9:26 And it shall be, `that' in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.

Promise made to Israel - Hosea 2:23

2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them that were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, `Thou art' my God.

Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 2:10, Rom. 9: 25 &26

2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for `God's' own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
2:10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Promise made to Israel - Exodus 19:5-6

19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:
19:6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Fulfilled in the Church -1 Pet. 2:9

2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for `God's' own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light

Promise made to Israel - Amos 9:11

9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;

Fulfilled in the Church Acts 15:14-18

15:14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
15:16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
15:17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
15:18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.

NO REFERENCE TO GENTILES AT ALL IN AMOS 9:11! ONLY A REFERENCE TO REBUILDING DAVIDS TABERNACLE! HOW WAS DAVIDS TABERNACLE REBUILT? BY THE FACT THAT GOD HAD TAKEN THE GENTILES AS A PEOPLE FOR HIS OWN NAME, NO LITERAL TEMPLE FULFILLS THIS PROPHECY! THIS IS THE APOSTLE JAMES WHO IS “SPIRITUALIZING” THIS OLD COVENANT PROPHECY!

Promise made to Israel - Eze. 37:27

37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
37:28 And the nations shall know that I am Jehovah that sanctifieth Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


Fulfilled in the Church - 2 Cor. 6:16

6:16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD!!!!! THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE SOME EARTHLY REBUILDING OF SOME STONE TEMPLE!!!! IT’S NOT ABOUT THE NATION OF ISRAEL, THE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST ARE THE ISRAEL OF GOD!
THIS IS PAULS INTERPRETATION OF PROPHECY!
Promise made to Israel - Joel 2:28-32

2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah your God, and there is none else; and my people shall never be put to shame.
2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
2:29 and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
2:30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh.
2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.

Fulfilled in the Church - Acts 2:16-21

2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:

2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
2:19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable `day'.
2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
AND YOU WILL SAY “ BUT THE MOON HASN’T BEEN TURNED TO BLOOD! THAT PROPHECY HAS YET TO BE FULFILLED!” PETER SAID THE MOON TURNED INTO BLOOD, ARGUE WITH HIM ABOUT THE WAY HE “SPRIRTUALIZES” SCRIPTURE. BUT YOU SAY “THE SPIRIT HASN’T BEEN POURED OUT ON “ALL FLESH”. PETER SAID IS WAS, ARGUE WITH HIM FOR ‘SPIRITUALIZING’ SCRIPTURE.

Promise made to Israel – Lev. 19:2

19:1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,

19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy; for I Jehovah your God am holy.

Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 1:15-16
1:15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;
1:16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy


Promise made to Israel - Jeremiah 31:31-33

31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

Fulfilled in the Church - Luke 22:20, Heb. 8: 6-13, 9:15

22:20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, `even' that which is poured out for you.
8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.
8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.
8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.

8:13 In that he saith, A new `covenant' he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away.
9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

IT’S REALLY A SHAME AND AN INSULT TO THE BLOOD OF CHRIST TO THINK OF THE ETERNAL INHERITANCE THAT HE PAYED FOR ON HIS CROSS WOULD BE PURPOSEFULLY CONFUSED WITH SOME SUPPOSED EARHTLY KINGDOM. AGAIN LET ME POINT OUT THE FACT THAT THE WRTITER OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS EQUATES THE OLD COVENANT GIVEN TO ISRAEL WITH THE NEW COVENANT GIVEN TO BELIEVERS IN CHRIST.

“Land” Promise to Abraham - Gen 12:7

12:7 And Jehovah appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto Jehovah, who appeared unto him.

Fulfilled in Christ - Gal. 3: 16, Heb. 11: 10, 13 &16

3:16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11:9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a `land' not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
11:10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
11:14 For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own.
11:15 And if indeed they had been mindful of that `country' from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
11:16 But now they desire a better `country', that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city.

THE “LAND” PROMISE MADE TO ABRAHAM WAS NOTHING MORE OR LESS THAN FAITH IN CHRIST! HE IS THE “BETTER COUNTRY” THAT ABRAHAM DESIRED. NO MORE LOOKING FOR EARTHLY KINGDOMS! THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE AND HISTORIC ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY HAVE ALWAYS TAUGHT.

The promise to Abraham fulfilled in the Church – Gal. 3:29, 4:28

3:26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

3:28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one `man' in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

JUST NO WIGGLE ROOM HERE FOR TWO SEPARATE AGENDAS TO GODS PLAN! THIS IS THE APOSTLE PAUL SPEAKING.

Promise of David’s throne 2 Sam. 7:12-16

7:12 When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
7:13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men;
7:15 but my lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
7:16 And thy house and thy kingdom shall be made sure for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Fulfilled in the Resurrection of Christ Acts 2:29-35

2:29 Brethren, I may say unto you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us unto this day.
2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins he would set `one' upon his throne;
2:31 he foreseeing `this' spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
2:32 This Jesus did God raise up, whereof we all are witnesses.

2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.
2:34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
2:35 Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet.

THE THRONE OF DAVID IS FULFILLED THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST AND THE OUT POURING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. THAT’S HOW PETER SAW IT, NO EARTHLY THRONE HERE, PERIOD.
NOT ONE OF THE ABOVE PROPHECIES GAVE ANY CLUE THAT THEY WERE TO BE FULFILLED SPIRITUALLY THROUGH THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST REIGNING FROM HEAVEN, BUT THAT IS HOW THE APOSTLES TOOK THESE SO-CALLED “LITERAL” PROPHECIES GIVEN TO A FLESHLY PEOPLE AND RE-INTERPRETED THEM TO FIT THE AWESOME REALIZATION OF WHAT GOD HAD REALLY HAD IN STORE FOR US THROUGH CHRIST JESUS! THAT IS THE “MYSTERY” OF THE GOSPEL!

I WANT TO POINT OUT A FEW MORE SCRIPTURES AND THEN I’LL END:


“Literal” Land Promises fulfilled - Josh 21:43&44

21:43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
21:44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
21:45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

“Kingdom” taken from Jews - Matt. 21:43, 8:12

21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
8:10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

And given to the Church - Luke 12:32, Jn. 10:16

12:31 Yet seek ye his kingdom, and these things shall be added unto you.
12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

Baptism replaced circumcision – Col. 2: 11&12

2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
2:10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

We are the true circumcision – Ph. 3:3

3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3:3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh

Christ is the Christians Passover - 1 Cor. 5:7&8

5:7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, `even' Christ:
5:8 wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

The Church is the Bride of Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2,

11:2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you `as' a pure virgin to Christ.
11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.

There is only one New Man – Eph. 2:14 – 16

2:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
2:15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, `even' the law of commandments `contained' in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, `so' making peace;
2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

There you have it then, this is the Apostles teaching concerning how to interpret Old Covenant prophecy. This is the historic Christian faith. There is no future earthly kingdom for Israel in the New Covenant Gospels or Epistles. The Promises made to that fleshly people in Palestine had there complete fulfillment in Christ and His Body the Church. To believe otherwise is to believe a false doctrine, another gospel, “worldly fables and Jewish myths” (Ti. 1:10-14, 1 Tim. 1 3&4, 4:7, 2Tim. 4:3&4)

The Jewish nation made the error of assuming Christ came to establish an earthly kingdom for them, which He emphatically did not! They rejected Christ because of this. Do not slander the Cross of Christ by trying once again to offer an earthly kingdom to the Jews, for Christ’s Kingdom began 2,000 years ago in the Spirit and it will have no end.

 2006/3/24 15:14Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Israel is still the bride of the Father and has not lost her place, the church is the bride of Christ. Now there is a remnant in Israel, a 1/3 part of her according to Zechariah which shall not be cut off but shall be tried in the fire.



Can you not see that this 1/3 was saved when Peter first started to preach the gospel on the day of Pentecost?, wherein 5,000 men alone besides women and children were saved. That was on one occasion.

So, the Father has a wife (Jews) and the Son has a wife (Jews and Gentile)

Look at what Paul says about the Fathers bride;

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; ,[b]and they please not God[/b]and are contrary to all men:

Further: 1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Doesn't sound like a special people to me.

Regarding her so called place in the Father. She lost her place indeed. According to the scriptures Judah and Sameria went whoring after other nations, making agreements with them, and using those nations as their strength instead of God. God saw these acts the same way as a woman who is an adulterous.

When John and Jesus arrived on the scene, they called them a wicked and an adulterous generation.

Now hold that thought, I am going to show you that Jesus Christ who was the express image of the Father came to divorce Judah. It's important that you see this.

Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

I want you to look at this man as Christ/Father and the woman as His bride,

But lets look at the history of this marriage first:

Ezekiel 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. 9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. 10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Ahhhh, but she didn't stay the chaste virgin, she became unfaithful, the story continues,

Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. 16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. 17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them. Ezekiel 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, Ezekiel 16:23 And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the LORD GOD) Ezekiel 16:26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger. Ezekiel 16:28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.

Ezekiel 16:32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!

Lets go back to Romans: I hope your taking this in and not just skimming over it.

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

God was married to adulterous Judah, He came to die on the cross to release her because He loved His covenant with Abraham so much.

On the cross, God created a new love, Jesus Christ, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Remember what David said in the Psalms, "Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."

Did God forsake them He foreknew, God forbid, Romans 11:5 Even so then at this [b][size=xx-small]present[/size][/b] time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

At the "PRESENT TIME" in which this was written, Israel according to the election of grace and your 1/3 Ironman was being saved.

Now you conviently said that there is no time in the Spirit. Where is that in scripture, that there is no time in the Spirit?

If your referring to this verse, 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

It's still talking about time. Whether it is days months or years, it's still time.

 2006/3/24 19:15
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob
what of the prophecies given in Zechariah? whuch apostle applied those to the church? There is no slave of free, Jew nor greek in God because the Lord will tend to us all without regard to race or heritage. however He deals with us all differently because we are different and He made it so to His own glory.

tell me then, what of what Paul says in Romans about the grafting in of the natural branches of the tree and how we gentiles should not boast against the natural branches because if God cut them off and tossed them into the fire, you best believe that He can do the same with us. This is the spirit which is coming across in your posts that disturbs me so. The Lord is not done with the Jews yet, they haven't been grafted back into the tree because the number of gentiles is not yet complete. this admonishion by Paul is proof positive that there is still a distinction between Jew and gentile which serves the purposes of God for now even though we are all one tree.

i agree with you in that much of the prophecies of the o.t. have indeed been fulfilled, you won't get any arguement with me on that. but there are some that yet remain unfulfilled such as the ones in Zechariah. so i ask again, which apostle spoke of these prophecies as being fulfilled? for example has the 2/3 of the nation of Israel yet been cut off and the remaining third refined and brought to the realization that Christ indeed is the messiah? have they yet mourned Him whom they pierced as they would an only son?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/24 19:51Profile





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