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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


Amen, sister Annie,
You beat me to the punch, probably better this way. Well, here goes pt. 3.

Shepherds of the East would name their sheep when they were lambs, giving each one their own individual name. When the shepherd called their name they would come to the shepherd. They would only go to their shepherd, they would not come to the call of a stranger.
Several flooks would pasture in the area of a central well. Each flock having their own shepherd. At a set time of day, the flocks would be led to the well, the cover removed, and all the sheep would be watered. During this time they would mingle together and become a large
flock, way to large for one shepherd to lead.
After they were all watered, each shepherd would
call his sheep by name, they would answer the call of their shepherd and he would lead them to
This is one analogy Jesus was using in John 10.
Since this is the Lord's description of a shepherd and his sheep, it should also be ours,
The next analogy shows the shepherd leading the sheep, or lets say being an ensample to the sheep.
We all need to take heed to this. A shepherd cannot, can't, will not work, is impossible to, lead the sheep from behind a desk.
He cannot stand behind a pulpit and tell the sheep how to live in victory out in the pasture,
and never go into the pasture himself. This can only be done by the shepherd going into the pasture with the sheep.
Oh Yes, he must go out in the pasture and work.
He must show the sheep how to live in the pasture
and not only live, but live in victory.
Pastor, your calling, if your called to be a shepherd, is to lead, feed, and protect the sheep. This is your calling and its without repentance. Belive me I know!
Second is your job/profession, your means of support for yourself and your family. They are not the same. One BIG LIE is to think they are.
Paul was called to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but his profession was a tentmaker.
Peter, fisher of men- fisherman
Luke, minister- physician
etc,etc,etc. see 2Thess.3:7-10
You say, thats to hard. Then your not called to be a shepherd.
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. see Luke 17:1; 18:27. Matt.19:26;
Mark 10:27.
Why can't our Lord use a flock of ten, twenty,
thirty,forty or fifty? Where does it say a flock is in the hundreds or thousands except they be sheep scattered without a shepherd?
Why can't the gifts be in operation in a flock the shepherd can oversee, instead of mass confusion with everyone doing their own thing?
Jesus said: where two or three are gathered together in My Name, their am I in the midst of them. Matt. 18:20.
Jesus teaches us the sheep/shepherd concept, and if we would do it His way we would see the body,
His body come together as it is intended. Neighbor would be ministering to neighbor and we would see the Lord move in our midst.
Remember, to obey is better than sacrifice 1Sam 15:22.
Without fairh it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Heb.11:6.
Its not a method that causes God to move. Its faith and obedience to Him.
Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit saith the Lord. Zech.4:6

2 Cor. 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.

Love to all,


 2006/4/3 21:46Profile

Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296


Is there a book out there, Pastor Frin, about this whole shepherd/sheep analogy. It is awesome and turning my view right side up. I am not a pastor but long to understand a true concept of the church and what Christ, our shepherd intended. MeAGain, you mentioned a book, is there one?
May grace abound to all


 2006/4/4 18:12Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re: What would you suggest the hireling is?

Hi Rich,
The hireling would be the type you refered to,
one who would lord over and are greedy for size and money. We have all heard it said "power corrupts, and absolute power absolutly corrupts".
A hireling is on a power trip, he loves to receive glory and praise, and his main purpose for doing what he does is to receive financial reward and the praises of man. Big is beautiful,
knowing the sheep means nothing to them other than the ones who can do something for his cause.
He will teach what the well to do want to hear,
and his attention will most often abide with them. He will keep the ones who feather his nest
happy. Thus saith the Lord is avoided when it will cost gain. Since the majority of the sheep mean nothing to him, he will flee when they need him most. Its only a job to him, not a calling.
If he ever was called, he long ago strayed from

The tithe: It would be best to cover this in another thread.
I can share how we do things. Giving is taught,
Old and New Testament. We stress 2 Cor. 9. We do not receive an offering, we have an offering box
in the church and each one gives as the Lord purposes in their heart.
ALL that the Lord supplies goes to the meeting
house, for heat, upkeep, and etc. Our little building, a little white church, built in 1825
seats about 60 with the pews full. We have had around 120 with chairs set around sanctuary and a small overflow room. All other monies go for helping those in community, food, clothing, heat,
medicines, and etc. Also missions, home and elsewhere. No one receives pay for their services.
We believe in the Gifts of ministry and of the Holy Spirit, and they are allowed,taught,and encouraged. Our worship servive is open to the Holy Spirit and His leadings, as much as we can stay out of His way.
During our teachings, everyone is encouraged to participate, a message is often paused to answer
and expound on questions, and sharings. The best time to address something, is when its on a brother or sisters mind.

Hope this answers some of your questions, all you need do is ask.

All for His Glory and Praise,


 2006/4/5 21:12Profile


Rich, I forget what page it was on this thread, but I read "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" twice.

Once about the Lord over us and the second time from the eyes of a Pastor. I'm not Pastoring, but thought it was neat to see it that way ... actually, I thought it was neat after the Lord wanted me to read it that way. Sure made tons of sense.

Pastorfrin, you keep it up and we'll all be "flockin'" to yer building and ya'll have to set us back out, cuz the flock'll be too big. :-)

[u]God Bless ![/u]

Just a country cornball here.

 2006/4/5 21:38

Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 316
Pinson, Alabama, USA


Jesus said that if you want to be great in His kingdom, you have to be a servant to the rest. While I appreciate Pastorfin's comments in the opening thread, I must ask Him where are the Apostles, the Prophets, the Evangelists and the Teachers? You think genuine pastors have gotten a raw deal out of this monachistic religious format, what about these guys. Even to mention that one may be a prophet is to equate the poor man with crooked used car salesman or vacuum lawyers. In fact, most pastors completely ignore that GOD gave to the church Apostles, Evangelist, Prophets, and Teachers. Why is that, sir? Is it not because the pastoral office is first and foremost a livelyhood? Anyone with any kind of an anointing is deemed as a threat to the kingdom of and income for the "pastor". Why is it sir, that pastors set themselves up as the sole authority over the lambs when the bible plainly teaches that Christ is the head of the church? Why is it that pastors do all the things in your list that the sheep themselves are supposed to do. Aren't you, along with the other leaders supposed to train up the SAINTS for the work of the ministry? If this is so, and it surely is, why is it you will not empower others to do what you act like is wearing you out?

The traditional church and it's greek orthodox format of so called "service" is nothing at all like the first century church. We don't need something new, sir. We need something old. We need to go back to Calvary and rediscover our roots. We need to do church like they did in the first century, and you will find that the results of souls won will dramatically improved. You may also find that Jesus becomes the center of attention, and not the pastor.
Just some questions I had, with all due respect.

Immersed in Christ Jesus,

Onesimus for God

Lahry Sibley

 2006/4/7 4:43Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re:Sheep without a shepherd


First, no where in these threads have I complained about my sacrifice as a pastor.

Second, it is evident by your list of questions,
that you have not read through these threads. If you had, 'your' questions would aready, for the most part, be answered. If, after you have read through these threads, you still have questions or accusations, I will be happy to attempt to answer them.

I have one question for you.
Where do you get your information about 'most' pastors, to be able to make such an all encompassing and all inclusive statement? As

In fact, most pastors completely ignore that God gave to the church Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers.

Have you conducted a survey of pastors throughout
the world?
Have you been to every church, assembly, and congregation?
Does 'most' mean 5, 25, 50, 75, or 95 percent of all pastors?

No, I suspect, as with your questions, you have a little knowledge about this subject, and with very little study or research, you have made some grand and hyperbolic statements. Very Dangerous.
We must remember the words of our Lord in Luke
12:48. ( For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required ).
I have no problem with questions, in fact I have encouraged questions. What I ask is that you read the entire thread and then we will talk.

Nothing without Him,


 2006/4/7 14:16Profile

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



pastorfrin wrote:
Have you conducted a survey of pastors throughout
the world?
Have you been to every church, assembly, and congregation?
Does 'most' mean 5, 25, 50, 75, or 95 percent of all pastors?

No, I suspect, as with your questions, you have a little knowledge about this subject, and with very little study or research, you have made some grand and hyperbolic statements. Very Dangerous.
We must remember the words of our Lord in Luke
12:48. ( For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required ).
I have no problem with questions, in fact I have encouraged questions. What I ask is that you read the entire thread and then we will talk.

Amen. It seems that there are many who mistake a deep wounding offence that, to quote Keith Daiel, is "..sent by the devil to destroy [them], but used by God to make [them]..." for a "prophetic directive" to destroy ministry. It's sad really (ashamedly, I have been guilty in the past :oops:).

At the end of the day, the words "weeds" and "tares" come to mind (in fact it has come to mind alot lately).

Aaron Ireland

 2006/4/11 9:12Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re: From a shepherds heart.

In our old house, the one I shared about in the
thread,[u]That I May Know Him,[/u] the house we
shared with all the critters.
We had an electrical problem, the electric meter
kept burning up. The power company said it was because we were drawing to much electricity.
Solution: A larger watt service, which meant a
new breaker box, grounding, change over of wires
from old to new, permit, and inspection.
I called the building inspector and he came over and looked at it.
I knew a little about electrical but not much, so
I simply asked the inspector, what do I have to do? He gave me a list of the materials I would need and the instructions on how to do the job.
He said he could do it for us but it would be exspensive, and he felt if I followed his instructions I could do it ok. Just call if I had any questions.
He said to call when I was done and he would inspect it, and call the electric company to do the change over.
Did I tell him I did'nt like his way, so I was going to do it my way? No, of course not, he was the expert, a licensed electrician, the one with
the knowledge. I followed his instructions and used the material from the list and every thing
came out fine.
Why? Because I did what I was instructed to do.

Prov. Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration
of God, and is profitable for doctrine; for reproof, for correction, for [u]instruction in righteousness:[/u]
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly
furnished unto all good works.

We had been at our first pastorate for just a few months, when she showed up at the Sunday evening service.
There she is pastor, thats her, she's the one we've been telling you about. Hope you are ready
for her.
I was terrified, thanks Lord, just what I need,
you know I have never cast out a demon before.

You see, from the time we first arrived, the people of the church had been telling us about a
demon possessed lady, who someday would come and
challenge the new pastor. It will happen they said, she has not missed one yet. She will turn the service into a mess and people will be running for the doors. Great, now what do I do?

Lord are you listening? I said I have never cast
out a demon before.
Then I heard Him, a still small voice, simply said, No you have'nt, and you, never will. I have, and I will again, just follow me and do what I say to do. Ok, I feel better now, I think.

Well, we praised and worshipped the Lord in song
and then it was time for the message.
I believe the title was, Having Done All To Stand, Stand Therefore.
Not far into the message the woman stood, and in a voice that caused the hair on the back of your neck to stand up, she said, you and word you teach from is not of God.
I was freakin out, Lord now what? Then out of my mouth came these words, mamm, your statement about me can be debated, but God's Word cannot be, please sit down, and she did.
Well I continued with the message, feeling much
better, and then, she stood again, and with more
force repeated, you and the word you teach from is not of God.
Again my mouth opened, and out came His Word,
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and man shall live by every word of it.
She laughed a hideous laugh and sat down.
Again I continued the message and once again she
stood and interrupted.
This time, out of my mouth came these words, mamm, you are welcome to be here tonight, but the demon you brought with you is not.
She immediately jumped to her feet and in that hair raising voice said, well if there is a demon in me, then you take it out, right now, and
here she came right up to the front of the church
and there we stood, face to face.
I could see the look of terror on the congregations face, and I'm sure they could see it on mine. Then I got one of those looks from
my wife, that as much as said, well you did it again.
What do I do now? Help Lord!
Then it came, call for the elders, great idea,
would the elders please come forward in obedience
to God's word and we will pray for this lady.
Another hideous laugh.
They slowly came forward, very slowly, and when I said, we are going to annoint her with oil and
lay hands on her, they looked like they were all going to run away.
So I annointed her with oil and these words came
out, Father, in the name of Jesus Christ your Son
and our saviour, remove this demon from this lady and send it to hell.
Then it happened, nothing, nothing? yes nothing,
and then she let out a hugh sigh, a cry and the curtains upon the full lenght windows on each side of the church stood strait out. People were starting to stand, looking for the exits when
All of a sudden her hands went into the air and
she begain to thank the Lord for delivering her.
She was saved and filled with the Spirit and instead of people running to the exits, they ran
to the altar. The whole church broke into a time
of praise and worship to the likes I have never
seen before or since.
Why, because I had great faith? NO, and a thousand times NO.
I simply did what He told me to do. He is the Expert, not me or you.

People, I have watched this site and my heart cries at some of the responses that are given
to questions asked by humble brothers and sisters
simply wanting to learn. There not asking for our
expert opinions, or snide remarks they see and
hear. They want to know, thus saith the Lord, and just because we may know in our head does not qualify us to answer for Him.
Paul, with all the wisdom he possessed still chose these words,
1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined not to know anything
among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified.

We say we want to see the Lord move in our lives,
in our families, and in our communities then maybe we should adopt Paul's humility, or better
yet how about the Lord's.

Phil. 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as aman, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross.

Lets see, mind of Christ, no reputation, servant,
humble and obedient unto death.

Again Paul says,
1 Cor. 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the
Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the
mind of Christ.

We do? Then we must be as James 1:22 says,
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
When we become doers of the word, we will stop thinking of ourselves more highly than we ought,
and realize, as Acts 17:28 states,
For in Him we live, and move, and have our being.

Its in Him and in His love the world will know
that we are His disciples.
John 13:34,35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; As I have loved you, that ye also
love one another.
35. By this shall all men know that ye are my
disciples, If ye have love one to another.

I cried today as I read a post from a person who
came on this site with great expectation, seeking the love and maturity of His disciples,
she voiced her disappointment at what she found.
Its by us loving one another they see Jesus. Is
it not time they see just that.

Jesus himself prayed this prayer for us,
John 17:21 That they ALL may be ONE; as thou,
Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also
may be ONE IN US; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

No, its not about us, how much we know or think
we know. Its not about our way of doing church
or the kind of worship service we have. Its not about how many gifts of the Spirit are in opperation in our services.
Its about knowing the Lord Jesus Christ in such
a way, that His Love is first and formost in our
For by this shall all men know that we are His!

My Heart To You All,


 2006/4/28 1:43Profile

Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296


Praise God, for His indescribable gift, that manifests itself in humble words. Thank you Pastor Frin.

Have you ever, with blind, childlike faith, danced before the Lord, even without an inkling of feeling or emotion manifesting prior to? Strong on my mind has been a thought that worship is not in singing and then waiting for the feeling to move us, but rather a blind, unflinching faith to live and move and have our being in God. I see David dancing out of his clothes in the same fashion. He was exhilirated by His father and danced out of his pleasure for Him. Simply that.

Pastor Frin, or anybody, what have we done with worship today, is it as pure and simple as what David did before the Lord? What clouds that joy, what complicates that simplicity?

Help us, O God, to know you simply as a child, for then we are truly converted!


 2006/4/28 17:16Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re: What have we done with worship today?

Hi Rich,
Just a short answer for now, really busy. :knockedout: Its not so much what we have done, its what we have'nt done.
Worship is more than singing a song, its a life
style. Worship is doing, living, moving, and being in Him. Its doing all these things unto Him and in His name to the glory of the Father.
We have neglected Him to serve ourselves, and when that happens, we miss Him. Why?
Because He inhabits the praises of His people.

Praise His Holy Name,


 2006/4/30 21:52Profile

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