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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Hi h2oboy,

I think further discussion along those lines will warrant a different thread. I have helped to get this one off course far enough I suppose. :-? I do think it all ties together though. The answer is in I Timothy 1:14 and following.

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/15 9:48Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re:Questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

Wow, seems there is a stirring among the sheep.
Hi everyone forgive me for missing all of this,
I was away. Also forgive me for not answering
all your post, I just don't have the time. So please allow me to respond hopefully to all with
First of all this was not meant to be about me
or any other pastor/shepherd. This is about the
sheep. All who have been born of the Spirit of God, are the sheep of His pasture.
Look at Eph. 4 , read it, read it again and as many times as it takes for us to understand what the will of our Lord Jesus Christ is for His sheep. NO WHERE does it say He has put anyone over His sheep. He says, HE GAVE SOME, from among the sheep, HE, Our LORD, gave some to be
apostles, prophets, evangelists,pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. Why? Because its His Will. Its His Will that we, His sheep, all come into the unity of the faith.
In this chapter we are told HOW, the sheep grow up into Him in all things which is the head, even
We are also told what will hinder the sheep from growing up into Him. I will sum up, what will hinder this way, Vs.17. by walking in the vanity
of our minds. Whats that mean? I'm going to do it my way, so I will just ingnor the Lord's way.

Mark 3:35 For whosover will do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Again I remind you, we are all His sheep, no matter what part of the body He has chosen us to be.
So again I ask the the question, Will You?
Will you do His will by serving as the body part
He has chosen you to be?

Rember, every single part of His body has been
called to the work of the ministry.
Vs.16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The effectual working comes from doing His will.

1 John 2:12 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.


Love To All,


 2006/3/15 20:47Profile


That's great pastor,
But someone brought up today, that it is usually the Shepherd who runs the "Church" who stops the gifts in "his" Church.

How many Pastors allow "prophets" or even "prophecies" or other Teachers to have their pulpit, or Evangelists to bring street bums in, etc. etc. etc. ?

If only all Churches were so unstructured as the one you just described so that the WHOLE Body could be used.

Maybe you could address this on here and maybe some how it could reach the ears of many pastors who run the show.

Thank you. I enjoyed this post you just did.

His Love to you also.


 2006/3/15 21:08

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Maybe you could address this on here and maybe some how it could reach the ears of many pastors who run the show.

Yes, I agree with Annie on this and would like to hear your perspective. In our circles there are some pastors who 'tolerate' the gifts and others who welcome them. The cautious pastors have the attitude due to past experiences in which folk were given wrong 'words' that led to great confusion. This is probably another thread material, but it would likely make for a good discussion.

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/16 8:33Profile

 Re:Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

The cautious pastors have the attitude due to past experiences in which folk were given wrong 'words' that led to great confusion.


If I may comment.... I think this is the difference between Old Covenant and New Covenant thinking.

Under the Old, every word which has been preserved for us from the Prophets, is regarded as The Word of God to His People. THat is, because only certain people were able to hear from God... the Priests and Kings who were born into a ceremonial role, and odd ball ordinary people, who were given the burden of prophecy directly from God for their generation.

Under the New Covenant, He says, Hebrews 8 (KJV)

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 [b]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: [u]for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest[/u][/b].

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old.

Therefore, my understanding of 'ministry' today in a 'New Covenant' church is, that when a brother or a sister brings a word - either shared formally from the floor, or prayed, or (what I would call) prophesied, in tongues with interpretation, or 'other' (such as knowledge or wisdom), the onus is on each individual member to be hearing what GOD IS SAYING TO THEM. And that might vary in outworking from person to person.

For instance, if it is word about say, obedience.... for one, it might mean they feel convicted of a wrong attitude; for another, it might be a totally practical matter, such as paying a bill they've been putting off, or visitng someone in hospital. I suppose one could argue those all have to do with attitude - so maybe 'mood' might come into this somewhere. But do you see what I mean?

I'm beginning to realise that some brethren think they can discount a 'word' as not being from God, because they think it is too general to be inspired by Him. (And therefore, it has no application in their lives.) But, because of the way I was taught to 'listen' to such words, I've rarely heard one which came through the gifts, which did not contain something for me personally, directly from God, which made me respond to Him that day, or to feel fed by it.

This means that a good bit of what might have been said, if the Lord did not light it up to me personally, I did not even try to retain.

I maintain that we all know when [b]God[/b] has spoken to us, and after that, the onus is on the believer to allow it to work in them, to leaven the lump or to bring forth fruit (unto Him).

If you don't agree, please be gentle with me, and show me a better way.

 2006/3/16 9:10

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Hi Dorcas,

If you don't agree, please be gentle with me, and show me a better way.

I'm listening with no reason to quarrel. I have such a limited perspective that it helps to hear how others view such things. In the OT a person could be stoned for bringing a [i]false[/i] word; but I think the issue was a matter of doctrine more than the details of the who and what. Many prophesies NEVER could be fulfilled in the time they were given- yet the prophets were speaking to the people in 'real' time. Had they used a standard we think they should have they had been stoned also as what they prophesied did not come to pass. So I think we have missed something here somewhere. We may be applying rules of interpretation to these 'words' that do not apply. We have clear direction on the checks and balances, but I think you may be right here in that we are under the NT and not the OT in that regard. The atmosphere has to be one of love.

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/16 9:45Profile

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406

 Re:Maybe you could address this on here

Hi Annie,
You have been upon my heart and in my prayers the last few days,what a blessing it is to hear from you. In fact, its a blessing to hear from every one of you. What a wonderful experience
it is to share with one another His glorious truths.
Well I will try, Lord give me wisdom, to address some of these questions. Due to space and time
lets just try a bite at a time.
First, if a church is not opperating according to
Eph. 4 it is not in the will of God.
Its very hard for me to address this issue without offending someone. May I ask all of you to please pray and seek His truth before you decide to be offended.
Lets start with Matt. 15:1-14 we will only look
at His application here to leadership.
Fact: a pastor who does not allow the Holy Spirit
full reign in the gathering of the saints, is very insecure. Thus he is steeped in tradition.
Our Lord says in Matt. 15:6 that this kind of tradition makes the Word of God to no effect.
Why tradition? It gives the insecure pastor full control,its a set program,no allowances are made
for the leading or moving of the Holy Spirit. Why? Insecurity wants to be in total control,
no surprises. 2Tim.3:5 calls it a form of having a godliness, while denying the power thereof;
from such turn away.
Jesus makes this clear in Matt. 15:8,9. that the
insecure lead in lip service, but not from the heart. He says Vs.9 But in vain they do worship
me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.(tradition).
In Vs.14. He confirms what is said in the last part of 2Tim.3:5. From such turn away. Matt.15:14
let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch. So whats He saying?
Let them alone and from such turn away.

Now, to make something very clear, He is talking
about the traditions that leave out or ignore the
Word of God and replace it with mans controls.

If a church is not being opperated according to
Eph.4 it is not a new testament church., and chances are the pastor and a majority of the congregation like it that way, it might possibly be, only because of ignorance.
You, after much prayer and if you are led by the
Lord to do so, point out the truth in LOVE,IN LOVE. If the truth is accepted and taught, stay and support the shepherd. If the truth is not accepted, then you should as Matt.15:14 says, leave them alone and as 2 Tim.3:5 says, from such turn away.
DO NOT speak out to others against them. The Lord
is well able to handle the matter.
Now, go where the truth and the liberty of the Spirit is being taught.
2 Cor.3:17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Liberty, for the effectual working in the measure
of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Praise God and enjoy the liberty of His Spirit!

to be continued

Love to all,


 2006/3/16 23:37Profile

 Re: Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

[b]Liberty[/b], for the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I'm interested now, in how you square this description of 'church' (with which I agree wholeheartedly) with the title of your thread?

 2006/3/17 5:35


This is so funny. I sign off to leave and then another thread catches my eye.

I think we should all just stay signed on until we shut our computers off for the day.

Ha - Ya know why ? Because when I first started looking for a Forum to participate on, if there wasn't anyone there, I figured who would be there to answer me or talk to me, so I'd pass that one up .... but if I saw it had active posters on, at least a few at a time, I'd be more inclined to think they were Fellowshipping.

Anyhow, Dear Pastor ... that was a beautiful answer and I can't agree with you more. That is exactly as we were taught.

In an individual fellowship, if what you didn't agree with was not something that could be worked out between you and the leadership, you just leave and leave that shepherd accountable before God. Knowing that God can raise up and take down, easily.

I truly enjoyed how you stressed the "whole" of Chapt. 4 of Ephesians, because there is much there.

Then, if you add the gifts as you have, the Shepherd can "move aside" in some instances and allow the "other" gifts to do what he knows in his "discernment" of which gifts operating by whom in his group, are from the Lord or not.

There HAS to be some order, as we read in 1 Corth 14, and that's why ALL the gifts are needed.

If I pop out with something that isn't from God, I am to be tested by the others, who have the gifts of the Discerning of spirits or Prophets or Teachers who are more into the accuracy/Biblically of what I had just spoken, and so on.

That is why I see you agree that we are a Body of many members and should be working "together", functioning as a body would ... the eyes helping the ears, helping the arms, helping the legs, etc.

It is only when one body part tries to take an ascendancy type position that the Body is either hindered or tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine or manifestations from other sources, flesh or devils or whatever.

How wonderful if a Body could operate with first Discernment from those in leadership and the respect of Biblical Accuracy and then the other gifts could operate in the "safe pastures" of such an environment.

The Rod and the Staff, were for Protection of the sheep and discipline (in the Biblical sense).

Without Discernment and Biblical Accuracy, we've run amuck and made a mockery out of the workings of His Body and don't represent HIS Body at all.

I like your reply very much and it had a lot in it to chew on. Sheep bring their food back up and chew it over and over. Ha, I raised sheep for a while, and though it's funny to watch, and sometimes smells, it's a God Given Act.

Reading "A Shepherd's Look at Psalm 23" from a Pastor's responsibility view, is very eye opening too.

God Bless you Pastor - very much.

Thank you for your prayers Also, very much.

 2006/3/17 15:28

Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


Hi Dorcas,
The connection is this, a pastor/shepherd is part
of the church/body of Christ, as is apostles, prophets, evangelist and teacher, as stated in
Eph. 4 and 1 Cor. 12. The question is, if these are given to the church/body of Christ for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ;
Which one of these gifts can the body do without?
What part of the perfecting and edifying process
should we not use (leave out)? and on who's authority?
You see, we can plug any one of these Gifts of the Holy Spirit into this thread. So we could
ask the question this way.
Some questions for those who would leave the sheep without apostles, prophets, evangelist,
pastor/shepherd and teachers<
I used pastor/sheperd because they seem to be at the top of the list of gifts to do away with.

In 1 Peter 5:1-5 Peter makes it clear what the office of pastor/shepherd is and what kind of person is to fill it. He then states the reward
for being faithful to this office. Vs. 4 And when the cheif Shepherd shall appear, ye shall
receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

If Jesus is the cheif Shepherd as stated above,
does that not make the people Peter is talking
to in Vs. 1-3. under shepherds? You Think?

People who want to tamper with the gifts given to the church by Our Lord are walking on very
dangerous ground. I believe its called quenching
the Holy Spirit, which we are commanded not to do. 1 Thess. 5:19.

Hope this helps.

Love to all,


 2006/3/17 19:26Profile

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