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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

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I'd rather have a Pastor who actually "feeds" the sheep the quality 'meat' of the Word, then if he calls me when I'm sick or visits me or any of those other things.

If I'm being fed half-truths and half-errors, then he can just as well stay home then come see me at the hospital.

Jesus told Peter to Feed my lambs & sheep.

I'd rather be strenghten by His Word, then have my hand held.

The Church is messed up, because Pastors teach their opinions and teach their flock to follow that same mistake.

 2006/3/14 17:30

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


I'd rather have a Pastor who actually "feeds" the sheep the quality 'meat' of the Word, then if he calls me when I'm sick or visits me or any of those other things.

Yes, oh for the green pastures. Would to God that the Shepherds would lead the flock into those tablelands. The role of a Shepherd is so deep. A "Shepherds look at Psalm 23" is a tremendous and challenging resource in that regard. We need so many things? Protection, feeding, mending, and so on. We need [i]complete[/i] shepherds. We need the whole package. ;-)

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 17:44Profile

Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri


For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)

What a wonderful promise. And adds new urgency and importance that we must lay aside every weight that hinders, and forsake that which God forbids that we might abide in the calling wherein we are called (we know of course the discussion here in Corinthians was circumcision, slavery etc...). Why? Because we are bought with a price, the precious shed blood of Christ at Calvary.

Hardly, there is nothing sadder than a Christian who chooses to resist the Holy Ghost and the calling of God upon their life. No doubt God continues to call, He does not change His mind but in our rebellion never to realize the potential that was to be. We all have heard and read the tragic end of men and women whose mind as it were was in a vice, not believing there could be repentance and restoration, having committed suicide.

I'd rather have a Pastor who actually "feeds" the sheep the quality 'meat' of the Word, then if he calls me when I'm sick or visits me or any of those other things.

If I'm being fed half-truths and half-errors, then he can just as well stay home then come see me at the hospital.

Another good example of extremes we are so prone to. It is not a matter of either or but both. Let us live and practice both. If I am being fed half-truths and half errors perhaps it is time for me to roll out? And for that matter, I am reminded when the 12 Apostles called the multitude of the Disciples and appointed some to take care of the business of the Assembly, in that the Apostles could give themselves to Prayer and Preaching.


Tony Sexton

 2006/3/14 17:52Profile

Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528


Hi Robert,

I just wanted to clarify: I too do not believe the gifts and callings are revokable. I believe those who are called and qualified----are called by Christ, then qualified through CHRIST, not by their own works of righteousness. I also do not believe one who truly belongs to the Lord can "lose" their salvation.....but I think there are many out there who "think" they are saved, but are not-----the false conversions you spoke of earlier.

Saul's appointment is quite interesting. It appears to me that Saul was NOT called, but appointed by God due to MAN'S demands. Man wanted Saul. God gave man what he desired though it was not best for them. To me, so it is today in many pulpits-----man wants certain men/women in the pulpit and the Lord permits it to be so (For His purposes). Paul said it would be like this in the last days........For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers, they will will turn their ears away from truth, and be turned aside to fables.........II Tim. 4:3-4

Unfortunately, because this appears prevalent in Today's church, many are throwing the baby out with the bathwater concerning the labelling of pastors. I believe there ARE men of God who truly love Him with all their hearts and desire to serve Him and the Body faithfully with Agape love and in Truth. It's just difficult to find in the Western institutional church of today, where for some, Pastor is just a job, a status symbol, or a symbol of authority(not a calling). Blessings in Him, Cindy


 2006/3/14 18:07Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710



GLORIFICA'TION, n. See Glorify. The act of giving glory or of ascribing honors to.

1. Exaltation to honor and dignity; elevation to glory; as the glorification of Christ after his resurrection.

Glorification is the result of sanctification.

38. hagiasmos
Search for G38 in KJVSL
agiasmoV hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos'

from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

Sanctification is the state we are in of being glorified. Our glorification in spirit is complete in Christ Jesus, by His Spirit that is in us. Our glorification in mind (soul)is being attained by the sanctification of Christ in us being transformed by the renewing of our mind to the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit, Who is the Sanctifier and Christ be Sanctification. Christ has been made sanctification by the Father that birthed Him in us, Christ is now our Nature, and we are by sanctification being glorified. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The two, sanctification and glorification are in Christ. Sanctification that we glory in Him. Glory before God the Father, which is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Sanctification by Christ, being revealed by the Holy Spirit unto Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/3/14 18:33Profile


Very good post Sis Cindy. I beleive you hit the nail right on the head.


In Christ
J-bird :-D

 2006/3/14 21:28

 Re: Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

Hi Phillip,

I remembered where RonB wrote about 'glorification'. It's worth a read, and the discussion could be carried on there, probably.

The thread is called [u]Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification[/u] (That is not a link) in the Other Speakers forum, and his post is the last on the first page. This IS a link. :-)


 2006/3/15 6:09

Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777

 Re: gifts and calling - what's that

I’m just butting in here with a thought. It would seen that from the context of the words “God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable”, this refers to salvation and the benefits of salvation. It doesn’t seem to imply anything about positions in the church, or the way we typically use the world “calling” – ie position, job, duty, office…. Even gifts doesn’t seem to refer to abilities (preaching,evangelism, music, etc.)

I say this because I once heard a pastor say that because he was called to be a pastor, he was ALWAYS meant to be a pastor. In other words, God would never call him (demote) into the “secular” job market. I think he grossly misapplied the scriptures.

From Romans 11:
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Comments from E-sword:
GIFTS: The favors or benefits which God bestows on men. The word χάρισμα charisma properly denotes any benefit which is conferred on another as a mere matter of favor, and not of reward; see Rom_5:15-16; Rom_6:23. Such are all the favors which God bestows on sinners includingpardon, peace, joy, sanctification, and eternal life.

CALLING: The word “calling” κλῆσις klēsis here denotes that act of God by which he extends an invitation to people to come and partake of his favors, whether it be by a personal revelation as to the patriarchs, or by the promises of the gospel, or by the influences of his Spirit. All such invitations or callings imply a pledge that he will bestow the favor, and will not repent, or turn from it. God never draws or invites sinners to himself without being willing to bestow pardon and eternal life. The word “calling” here, therefore, has not respect to external privileges, but to that choosing of a sinner, and influencing him to come to God, which is connected with eternal life.

WITHOUT REPENTANCE: This does not refer to man, but to God. It does not mean that God confers his favors on man without his exercising repentance, but that God does not repent, or change, in his purposes of bestowing his gifts on man. What he promises he will fulfil; what he purposes to do, he will not change from or repent of. As he made promises to the fathers, he will not repent of them, and will not depart from them; they shall all be fulfilled; and thus it was certain that the ancient people of God, though many of them had become rebellious, and had been cast off, should not be forgotten and abandoned. This is a general proposition respecting God, and one repeatedly made of him in the Scriptures; see Num_23:19, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he not said, and shall he not do it? hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Eze_24:14; 1Sa_15:29; Psa_89:35-36; Tit_1:2; Heb_6:18; Jam_1:17. It follows from this,
(1) That all the promises made to the people of God shall be fulfilled.
(2) That his people need not be discouraged or desponding, in times of persecution and trial.
(3) That none who become his true friends will be forsaken, or cast off. God does not bestow the gift of repentance and faith, of pardon and peace, on people, for a temporary purpose; nor does he capriciously withdraw them, and leave the soul to ruin.hen he renews a soul, it is with reference to his own glory; and to withdraw those favors, and leave such a soul once renewed to go down to hell, would be as much a violation of all the principles of his nature as it would be to all the promises of the Scripture.
(4) For God to forsake such a soul, and leave it to ruin, would imply that he did repent. It would suppose a change of purpose and of feeling. It would be the character of a capricious being, with no settled plan or principles of action; no confidence could be reposed in him, and his government would be unworthy the affections and trust of his intelligent creation.


 2006/3/15 7:19Profile

Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri


Hi Roadsign,

I think that there are indications in the passage that gifts and callings can likewise be in view- as the statement is a general one within the context of Israel's calling (another hairy topic ;-)).

Lets look a little closer:

The word 'Chrisma' (gifts) is used 17 times in the New Testament. there seems to be a link in each one to the working of the Holy Spirit. Of those 17 times we find referral to:

[b]'Salvation'[/b]: Romans 5:15, 16, 6:23,

[b]Spiritual gifts of various sorts[/b]: Romans 1:11, 11:29, 12:6, I Corinthians 1:7, 7:7, 12:4, 9, etc.

The word 'calling' is another interesting word. This is 'klesis' in Greek means an 'invitation', but it does not seem to indicate the act of calling as much as the 'vocation' itself. It is used 11 times. Here we have:

For ye see your [u]calling[/u], brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: (I Corinthians 1:26)

Let every man abide in the same [u]calling[/u] wherein he was called. (I Corinthians 7:20)

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his [u]calling[/u], and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:18)

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are [u]called[/u], (Ephesians 4:1)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are [u]called[/u] in one hope of your calling;(4:4)

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high [u]calling[/u] of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil 3:14)

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this [u]calling[/u], and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: (2 Thess 1:11)

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy [u]calling[/u], not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (II Tim 1:9)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly [u]calling[/u], consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; (Hebrews 3:1)

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your [u]calling[/u] and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (II Peter 1:10)

We have a more frequently used word for the 'call' that goes out and it is kaleo- used some 130 or so times. it is found in Galatians 1:15 where Paul discribes his 'call':

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and [u]called[/u] me by his grace, (Gal 1:15)

First keep in mind that the word 'call' is scattered in with the vocational word 'calling' as we find in I Cor 7:20: [i]Let every man abide in the same [u]calling[/u] wherein he was called.[/i] So I think it save to assume there is certainly a connection between the 'call' and the 'vocation'. Returning to Galatians 1:15 we have great insight into the 'when' of the calling.

But when it pleased God, who [u]separated me from my mother's womb[/u],...

Notice that God called Paul before he had done any works good or evil. Even when he laid waste of the Church, accumulating the sins that would earn him the title "Chief among sinners" that calling was never revoked. Now, we read these things and they just kind of skim over our minds- but it is hard for me to get my head around the 'level' and number of sins commited when a person is compelling believers to blaspheme Christ and persecuting them at the level Saul of Tarsus was doing.

We cringe when we think of those that killed Nate Saint and company in South America- but imagine suddenly the head spearsman being relegated to an Apostle! That man would not be the dust coming off Saul of Tarsus and yet [u]still[/u] the calling was not revoked. It was tough for Paul to be trusted at first I am quite sure- even to the place where he said later in life... from henceforth let no many trouble me, for I carry in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

What are you saying Paul? Who was troubling you all the time? Why did you need to raise your shirt (as it were) to proove your sincerity? Could it have been because some of those people who [i]remembered[/i] who Paul once was STILL refused to let it go? People don't 'let things drop' easily. But it was never about who Paul 'was' it was about the New Creature he is in Christ. There was simply no way he could prove his repentance but to keep on pressing in in spite of all the persecutions coming from everywhere. He could not 'bring back' that man's sister he had killed or that woman's son.

It tooks stripes to convince the people, but the real [u]evidence[/u] was in the Finger of God that was present in His ministry. THAT is the indicator. We can cite the Ballim's and Donkeys as being used of God all we want to- but when the Finger of God is [i]truly[/i] present- confirming the Truth, what more evidence of a vocation do you want? I suppose Paul just said, OK, for those who still don't believe- those scars on my back here are from the many lashings I have taken for following my vocation. No body beat Paul for getting saved- the beat him because he was not unfaithful to the heavenly vision and that vision was the revelation of his ultimate vocation (calling) in Christ that was made before the foundation of the world.

Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/15 8:58Profile

Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA


Hello Robert,

Thanks for your words of enlightenment.

Was Paul the 'chiefest of sinners' because of the multitude of evil things that he did, the 1st century Saddam Hussein? Or did He see himself as worse than all others because he held a superieror knowledge of the scriptures and yet refused to belief that Jesus was the Messiah?

Missing the mark in ignorance is bad enough but when one claims to know God, know His Word, and yet not obey His commands, it is worse. Not obeying the voice of God in faith because we have not heard His voice is sin, but to refuse to do what we have heard him say is rebellious sin or lawlessness.


Jeff Smith

 2006/3/15 9:21Profile

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