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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Patrick,

I am aware of your position on how things should be in the Church and by and large I agree.

Quote:
The role of the "modern pastor" is un-biblical and actually in most cases does more to harm the sheep then to do them any good. Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness and our current view of a pastor is so corrupted at this point in the institutional church, I would have to say again that the answer to your question above is no and the quote below is deemed inconsequential.



I have a teaching on the role of the pastor called "The Tablelands" and in it I deal with the role of a Shepherd(s) as their role is to lead the people of God into green pastures where the milk and honey flows.

God by the hand of Moses led the people towards the land 'flowing with milk and honey.' Notice at the bottom of my subscript "Milk and Honey does NOT flow in Egypt." What does that mean? It is only in the green fertile places in which the revelation of God and the moving of the Spirit are found that MILK flows. Milk for what? Milk for the feeding of the lambs. The very thing Peter was told by our Lord to do, "Feed my lambs". And also "Feed my Sheep". We cannot lead a people onto the barren deserts of a dead dry world and expect to have reproduction and increase of lambs or healthy sheep.

Quote:
Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness...



This is the kind of radical stuff I am referring to. Surely you do not think that the vast majority of ministers are demons dressed in shepherds garb? Are there really that many ministers out there leading folk into legalisms and Judaism and falsehood that denies the Lord, the cross, and His saving power? Maybe there are many who are in error in some way. I am sure there are FEW that have it ALL right. But to suggest that they are mostly demons I cannot believe.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 13:20Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Since the vast majority of pastors are actually demons disguised as ministers of righteousness



Vast Majority??

Tell us about your study Patrick.
The vast majority of Pastors are demons? Is the number at 30%, 90%. 50%, was your study restricted to only Pastors there in Michigan? Was it conducted in the United States, Worldwide…..

Have you compiled a list of these demonic Pastors ?

If there are 400,000 + Churches and Pastors in the Unites States alone, how many of these are you familiar with, have interviewed, been in attendance in their meetings, studied their doctrinal statements, met with the parishioners?

Tell us more.


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Tony Sexton

 2006/3/14 13:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If God truly called you to shepherd, no matter what obstacles may come your way, HE will allow you to go forth in HIS power and you, if called, will go.



This is simply not true. Many are called and few are chosen. Yet even fewer are chosen, called [u]and[/u] faithful (Revelation 17:14)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 13:24Profile









 Re:

I don't think any of us have the right to judge the ministry of another pastor unless we've actually been in their shoes.

Personally being an evangelist it can be very overwhelming when you think of the GREAT responsibility that you have before you.

I know what it feels like to think your not good enough not educated enough to preach Gods Holy Word. To hold my wifes head as we cry together because were scared to death and soak the pillow with our tears. To feel like the whole world is watching you and wishing you would mess up so they can nail your coffin shut. To be despised because you want to live right and be a testimony to your Saviour. To be hated because of the stands that you take.To have other bretheren become jealous of you because God is blessing you and your ministry. To know the fear of standing before a congregation and preaching the Word. The shame of losing a battle and denying the Lord because you just werent that strong at that moment.
I'll never know the stress and loss of sleep that these dear men of God have went through in their ministry. The fakes are usually easy to pick out. Lost people, and children can spot a fake from a mile away. all you have to do is see how a child responds to this minister and 99% of the time the'll teach you what you need to know. Also lost people can tell you who is of God and whos not. their since of judgement and discernment is amazing.

 2006/3/14 15:49
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""You say that you have "accepted Jesus"...but has Jesus accepted you?

In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33"""

These two quotes are a pure and perfect law attention getters. I must say Jesus accepted the whole world at the Cross when it was finished. There is no question whether Christ has accepted me. The question is do I believe what God has said about His Son, is Christ's statement of "He who believes in Me will keep My Commandments," just a statement for good law keeping Jews or for that matter proselyted Gentiles? I think not, I think the Cross was enough to make sure that we had no question about acceptance, but only our Change in our belief system.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

I we believe that Christ is the Son of God and He died on the Cross to save those that believe, we have assurance, yes a complete assurance by John's statements the Christ has accepted us including me.

1 John 5:10-13 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God wants us to know, yes to know that we are saved from eternal damnation and are seated in Heavenly Place in Christ Jesus and give us assurance that nothing can separate us from the Love of God and Christ Jesus who is now our life and our all and our will if we believe.

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Yes, we do nothing or can do nothing of our own will, just like Jesus seeking the will of the Father, Through Jesus Christ we do the same, yes by Jesus Christ and Him alone can we do the will of Him that sent Him.

Who can separate us from this great oneness with God in Christ Jesus?

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/3/14 16:01Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
This is simply not true. Many are called and few are chosen. Yet even fewer are chosen, called and faithful (Revelation 17:14)



Yes, you are correct. My misspeak. Yes, many are called, but many are not qualified to be chosen. I do believe, if one is qualified to be chosen, the LORD will uphold them to fulfill the ministry the Lord has chosen them for........IF they "abide" in Him. We are admonished not to grow weary in well doing, for in due SEASON we will reap. Many faithful men/women of God need to put this truth deep down in their hearts, so they can endure that which comes against them from the flesh and the enemy. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy


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Cindy

 2006/3/14 16:17Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Phillip,

Yes indeed brother and this is what concerns me so much in regards to Finney’s Theology. What I refer to as a “hope so” Gospel which I find in part opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When what at least in part separated the Protestants from the Roman Catholics (Justification by Faith) becomes blurred and little understood there is a breakdown of monumental proportions.

Finney's position on these matters also caused him to define justification in subjective, rather than objective, terms. Protestants have historically insisted that justification is a purely forensic declaration, giving the penitent sinner an immediate right standing before God on the merit of Christ's righteousness, not their own (cf. Rom. 10:3; Phil. 3:9). By forensic, I mean that it is a legal declaration, like a courtroom verdict or a marriage pronouncement ("I now pronounce you husband and wife"). It changes the person's external status rather than affecting some kind of internal change; it is a wholly objective reality.
The subjective transformation of the believer that conforms us to Christ's image is sanctification—a subsequent and separate reality, distinct from justification (although I wish not to draw lines that are to severe in this regard). Since the dawn of the Protestant Reformation, the virtually unanimous Protestant consensus has been that justification is in no sense grounded in or conditioned on our sanctification. Catholicism, on the other hand, mingles justification and sanctification, making sanctification a prerequisite to final justification.

Well, I will step down off my box now…. This is what came to mind reading your post. Not meant to slam Finney, it has been pointed out that he was a revivalist not a Theologian, but perhaps a new thread on this would be appropriate as it may not fit here.

tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/14 16:19Profile









 Re: Some questions to those who would leave the sheep without a shepherd


Just butting in for a sec

Quote:
The subjective transformation of the believer that conforms us to Christ's image is sanctification—a subsequent and separate reality, distinct from justification.

I wonder if anyone can find RonB's recent assertion that what is commonly called 'sanctification' should more correctly be termed [i]glorification[/i]?

 2006/3/14 16:28
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I wonder if anyone can find RonB's recent assertion that what is commonly called 'sanctification' should more correctly be termed glorification?



This can be found in the Rora 2003 series here on the site and I highly recommend the whole series.

Repentance (A change in direction)
Justification (A change in legal status)
Regeneration (A change in our nature)
Adoption (a change in our relationship)

You can find those [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=137]here. [/url]


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 16:43Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Cindy,

I certainly do wish that all were faithful to walk in the calling wherewith they were called. I wish it was so that God's will is just carried out, but He has left many decisions in our hands. I do think there is something to be said about God's sovereignty also and I appreciate your stand in that.

Quote:
I do believe, [u]if one is qualified to be chosen[/u], the LORD will uphold them to fulfill the ministry the Lord has chosen them for........IF they "abide" in Him. We are admonished not to grow weary in well doing, for in due SEASON we will reap.



I wonder if we may have the cart before the horse here.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Ephesians 1:4)

The calling was before we had chance to do either good or evil. The call cannot be based upon performance in this regard as God deals with man in 'real time'. Saul is case in point. God does not call men based on what they will ultimately do, or He had erred in calling Saul. He lets men's lives play out in real time and deals with them accordingly. Consider also this passage:

For the gifts and [u]calling[/u] of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)

The WEB version says they are 'irrevokable'. God does not revoke the calling. (ed) [u]Un[/u]like a drivers license can be 'revoked'. I think this is an important consideration in our understanding of God's 'calling'. The enemy would love to come in and set up a scenerio to disqualify people from the calling of God by all sorts of weird things that cast doubt in man's eyes. All he has to do is set them up and they are suddenly 'disqualified'. Many times it is not even of their own making. There is no equity in that and God is a God of equity and justice. Even more so a God of mercy and grace.

God Bless,

-Robert




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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/3/14 17:05Profile





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