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TS
Member



Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 Re:

Linn--thank you for fixing my error and posting my thoughts on the right thread. If any one can relate to being "fired" up they may understand some of the comments I made. I do not exempt myself from any of the sins exposed...just awareness. To pretend I have the "answer" to the Body's woes is not my intent. To acknowledge things are way off course...regardless of all the ministry's that are doing great and wonderful humanitarian deeds is my intent. Maybe it takes no great spiritual inteligence to see what is wrong and I would agree it take much greater spiritual inteligence to offer a solution...but you have to at least see what is wrong before being able use your spiritual wisdom to offer solution. I stand firm on the bottom line what was written...judgment will put us in the desperate condition which will be the only true catalyst for our foolish human hearts to grasp the concept of Unity and then Revival...this is the order in which any corporate revival must take place.

Look again at what some have read a hundred times when logging into this site. (top right of page)
Quote from Stephen Olford 1904 to 2004--"It is my conviction that we are never going to have revival until God has brought the Church of Jesus Christ to the point of desperation"

What is desperation and what in all the world could put the Western Church of this day into a place of desperation but Gods hand of Judgment coming to create only one of two options. Accept the fact that we are reprobate and live only because of the Mercy and Grace of God falling on our knees in worship though He slay us....or to become offended at the fact that all these "bad" as in judgments are falling on us and we renounce our faith. This is what will push people off the fence and into one camp or the other...rather than in the camp of in-between.
I also am a firm believer in Christ coming back after the tribulation and that the tribulation itself will cause the true church to unify and become the spotless bride that will be made worthy by the hand of God to be given to Christ as a Bride. To think we will be whisked away in a rapture prior to His second coming is simply a slap in the face to Christ...can you imagine God giving a tarnished Church (read bride) to Christ. This is the shape of the church and it will be changed before Christ ever has a marriage ceremony.

whoops....i am getting fired up again....there is so much to talk about with those seeking His face.

Blessings
TS

p.s TS was chosen as a nickname because that is what I am...a Truth Seeker.
My real name Doug actually means "seeker of light"
I have been this way for a long time and am happy God is big enough to handle the quirks that each of His children have.

 2006/3/21 10:36Profile









 Re: Revival Idolatry

TS, thanks for your graciousness.

Quote:
the tribulation itself will cause the true church to unify and become the spotless bride that will be made worthy by the hand of God to be given to Christ as a Bride.

I would like to see this read in conjunction with a quote Frank (appollus) brought to attention in S+D recently (We are in the temple).

"Slowly, all through the universe, that temple of God is being built. Wherever, in any world, a soul, by free-willed obedience, catches the fire of God's likeness, it is set into the growing walls, a living stone. When, in your hard fight, in your tiresome drudgery, or in your terrible temptation, you catch the purpose of your being and give yourself to God, and so give Him the chance to give Himself to you, your life -- a living stone -- is taken up and set into that growing wall. Wherever souls are being tried and ripened, in whatever commonplace and homely ways, there God is hewing out the pillars for His temple. Oh, if the stone can only have some vision of the temple of which it is to be a part forever, what patience must fill it as it feels the blows of the hammer, and knows that success for it is simply to let itself be wrought into what shape the Master wills..."

[i]Phillips Brooks (1835-1893), The Law of Growth [1902][/i]


Remember also, that more people died for Christ in the last century than any preceding it. Basilea Schlink has written of the time when Christians will be seen as a hindrance to 'world unity' and the 'solution' the rest of the world will favour, will be to put us to death if we don't comply. If [i]you[/i] don't know whether you'd be as courageous as the Afghan brother we are praying for, who refuses to renounce Islam, now might be a good time to deal with whatever stands in your way..... Don't worry.... I'm asking myself the [i]same[/i] questions.



EDIT: I understand the following verses (among other things) to be saying that persecution is a sign that we are indeed righteous before God, in Christ. (In other words, I wonder whether we might like to ask why we are [i]not[/i] being persecuted?)

2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 2006/3/21 11:00
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 FIRED UP YOU SAY?!?!?

bro TS
it seems to me the Lord is showing us the same thing regarding the state of the Church and the need for revival and the devastation which must come before the desperation in which we will seek God. sometimes i think i'm losing it but i praise the Lord that when it is necessary He helps my unbelief by confirmation of what He has shown me through someone else to whom He has shown the same thing.

bro when the judgement of the Lord comes indeed we shall know the sheep from the goats. many people will jump ship citing that this Christianity is too hard and not what they signed up for. Those who are indeed the called of God and sold out to Him will know His provision and know truly what it is not to give thought to what they shall eat nor what they shall wear.

and bro i'm with you on how the Church must be purified and become without spot or wrinkle before being presented to Christ. As raggedy as we are you best believe that there is no way that we can be raptured without going through the fire of purification. a lot of people are also going to fall away when they get left behind but some will repent and know God as they ought.

now look what you've made me done...i'm fired up too!!!


Lord conform us to yourself and purify us with your fire.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/21 14:07Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re: FIRED UP YOU SAY?!?!?

This will come again...

Is. 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
“We will eat our own food and wear our own apparel;
Only let us be called by your name,
To take away our reproach.”
2 In that day the Branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious;
And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and appealing
For those of Israel who have escaped.

Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, 5 then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night. For over all the glory there will be a covering. 6 And there will be a tabernacle for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/21 15:22Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re: FIRED UP YOU SAY?!?!?

TS and Ironman keep speaking the truth in love. In fifteen years of speaking tribulation fire brings purity not many wanted to hear it. But all need to hear it.

Jeff


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/21 20:36Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Quiet Revival

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9583&forum=40&5] [revival] "I WAS AT the ASBURY REVIVAL"[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/23 9:47Profile
TS
Member



Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 Re:

Mike; it is with respect and admiration for your personal testimony (I did a little digging) that I attempt a reply at what you have brought to the table by linking the “Asbury Revival” to this thread. I will start by quoting a part of your testimony that I’m sure resonates so well with any truly seeking after God. I do not use this to qualify or support my thoughts on revival just as a platform to jump from.

“Now, it is a hunger to know Him, to know Jesus in all things with every breath, to know and do His will, to be obedient because of the love he has shown me. "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 14:19) I despair at phoniness, hypocrisy in religion, in Christianity, I just want something that is real, the truth no matter how painful...but what I really despair at is the fact that I can find all these things in myself, that they can still rear their ugly head, that my own motives need to be checked, that their is still much of self that needs to die.

But, praise be to God! Their is hope! Jesus is alive, still interceding for the saints and the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth who also prays for us in our weakness. It has been a progressive salvation for me, many sign posts along the way and somewhere I took a right turn, don't have a particular date to look back on, but the seed had been planted, finally it took root, many watered* and one day it broke the surface. It was all God's doing and I don't think I will ever fully understand how it can be. But I love Him with all my heart, all my soul and all my mind, twisted as it is.

This testimony so speaks what is on my heart....though I’m a wretch, Christ loved me anyway and loved me first...before I can love him, and let the Truth come no matter the pain it may bring.

Also to Jeff, Jeff, Ironman and Linn...the words you guys shared in your replies gives great encouragement to me and to many that share a kindred spirit.

We must first look at the term “revival” and give it some context I think. It is a term used so much that it seems to have lost a lot of its impact...at least on me. It is an awesome thing that the Body can go to a meeting and “feel” the presence of God and the great things that come from a person or many people involved in a meeting such as this is not to be diminished. However when (and the original thread title is revival idolatry remember) the meeting, or encounter with this feeling of glory is something that accomplishes little or is exclusive to a certain denomination or “non-denomination” as in the case of most recent revivals we should step back and look at what may be happening. Revival in some way can be brought right down to the salvation of a sinner when they are revived into a relationship with God that has always been available to him/her their whole life through the power and work of the cross. Putting revival on a larger scale we look at the Brownsville’s, Toronto’s and the Asbury type of revival and we see a certain segment of the Body being refreshed or possibly even reminded of what and who God is and have a sense of the presence of God, hopefully fueling them to “do” the work of the Kingdom by spreading the Word and Love of the Gospel.

I would ask is this the only form we need of revival in America? What have been the long term benefits of these revivals? Have they turned the world upside down as the band of disciples did when they were revived? We have countless Christians going from meeting to meeting to be revived. I get sick when I hear and have even been to revivals or “encounters” with God where the “most favored” seem to get something the rest do not...such as gold flecked oil in there hands or some other “manifestation” of Gods presence. When all is said and done are we revived or just taking part in a structure of religiously overtoned self-gratification. When I read of the testimony’s linked to revivals and hear how “we had a face to face with God” I somehow can not fathom that a person would still be talking if they truly had a “face to face” with the Most Holy. As God hid himself from Moses (who seems to have had a great righteousness on him in comparison to me anyway) so that He would not kill him as He passed by why do we degrade or lower the bar on such a weighty matter of having a face to face with God. Being in the side of the body that is seeking at the least the gifts of the spirit for only 8 years and coming from a staunchly conservative Baptist background prior...i can say that we on this charismatic side lack the awe and reverence of God that is found in some of the more traditional denominations or at least their roots. If God showed up face to face in a group of 100 the odds are according to the Bible in favor of a 100 dead bodies to none living. How could our flesh stand up to even the shadow of the Most High? Yet we constantly hear and use the verbalization of the “presence” of God as if we were thermometers reading a temperature. I sometimes “feel” the presence of God but it has nothing to do with someone saying can you feel it? It is on the occasions when God is speaking through someone and it connects with my heart and reminds me of my weakness and His otherness, meaning He is not of humans but the Creator of them. The fear and awe of the Lord must come before a revival that I am interested in. Yes we must know His love; and if we look at the cross we should be well aware of it, but do we know to be fearful (as in respect of something so far beyond us...not fearful in the sense he could be “bad” or evil) of the Only One able to give us as a gift we do not deserve everlasting life or communion with Him or on the flip side everlasting torment and separation should we choose His judgment and not His mercy. I feel that I do not grasp the reality of eternity well enough to grasp the fear of the Lord...which is the beginning of Wisdom. It has helped for me to think of Hell like this;

Picture being in torment, burning but not dying...in pain such as would kill a fleshly physical human being...with no relief not even a remembrance of ever being out of this pain. Then envision mountains of sand as far as you could ever see......at 1000 year intervals a bird flies into this place and takes a grain of sand away. After the millions and trillions of thousand year intervals it might take to remove all the grains of sand from all the mountains of sand those in Hell would be released they could still have hope and would rejoice at the sight of the bird every 1000 years. Clearly the Bible teaches that even after this amount of time went by it would be as no time at all compared to the big scheme of Eternity. Why would people not choose Christ?

To speak more factually let’s look at the 1970 Asbury revival, which by the grace of God spawned over 135 additional “revival” throughout America. As it turned out did this revival stop the decay of America? Was it not but 3 years later we continued our slide of offence against the Holy God by legitimizing the murder of our own baby’s? Since that revival has the difference between the sins of the world and the sins of those professing Christ become more and more separate? Look at any statistic of just the most devastating sins not tolerated under the banner of the Lord; divorce, abortion, pornography, sexual promiscuousness and homosexuality...those claiming to be Christians participate in these in the same number as those of the world. If you move beyond the obvious into the areas of the heart...are we as Christians less selfish, less materialistic, less of a glutton of a gossiper etc etc than we were 40 years ago? What of this sin....selling anything with the name of the Lord on it for profit or personal gain? I ran across a verse I think it was in Corinthians which states you are not to sell the Word for personal gain. I guess we all need to look the other way when we see this for to acknowledge it gives a sense of where we really are.

Do these revivals bring about people as in the Matthew 10 who raise the dead, heal the sick and cast out the demons. If there are any in America who do these things or claim to do them they are idolized as a celebrity and show true humiliation by living up to the celebrity status of being rich and famous. (sarcasm intended)

Where is the one who with no money in his purse, no extra clothing to carry goes from place to place welcomed by the body in true humility “freely giving from what was “freely gained”? Preaching the Word with signs and wonders following because they were sent empowered by the Spirit not by human agenda?

matt. 10:7-10
As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[b]drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

Why is this so foreign to us? Today a (well known) preacher from whatever camp you want to name needs an entourage to accompany him, a portable walk-in closet to hold his suits and an expense account (gleaned from the profit of selling the name of the Lord) the size of Ft. Knox. This sounds very harsh even to me as I write it but tell me it is otherwise and getting more so instead of less this way.

We need not another Preacher (look at the wealth of sermons on just this site) we need not another revival at least of the type seen over the recent years (though they have some worth as is evident), we need God to “send” someone, anyone (check out the bio’s again on the disciples) with power on high to do what they did in Matt. 10. Then we will see the 250,000 christian denominations dissolved into a unified though smaller (many will bail when the purification comes) Body which will then be shaped, purified and made Holy enough to be given as a Bride to King Jesus. Since a young boy I have been trying to figure out what the key is that will turn Gods heart to “send” as he did in the New Testament....I still do not know. What I do know and am learning more and more is that the types of Revivals that are being promoted as God visiting these meetings complete with an “Open Heaven” guaranteed on the brochure is in my opinion simply going along with the crowd and admiring the Emperors clothes too afraid to say he has none.

Rev.14—
To the Church in Laodicea:
The Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of all God has made, says this: I know what you do, that you are not hot or cold. I wish that you were hot or cold! But because you are lukewarm---neither hot, nor cold---I am ready to spit you out of my mouth. You say, “I am rich, and I have become wealthy and do not need anything.” But you do not know that you are really miserable, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I advise you to buy from me gold made pure in the fire so you can be truly rich. Buy from me white clothes so you can be clothed and so you can cover you shameful nakedness. Buy from me medicine to put on your eyes so you can truly see.

If any would like to study a modern day disciple and the cost of what it means check out Brother Yuns book, “The Heavenly Man” amazing how someone like Brother Yun can go through the experiences he has for the kingdom while we Americans jump from “revival” to “revival” hoping for a little of the gold flecked oil to be on our palms when we leave.

Judgment will bring about the circumstances that will be the catalyst for a true Revival...I ask the Lord to hasten the day, and to purify my putrid heart so I might live through it to bring some Glory to the King.

For any Mark Heard fans out there this is an awesome song with lyrics that help me know there are others who feel this frustrated about their Christian walk. I know that I am too weak and insignificant apart from God to change anything even my own heart...I pray God has Mercy and does it for me and you...soon.

Album---Eye of the Storm
song---The Pain That Plagues Creation

As this planet falls around the sun
Trapping us in its orbit
Creation groans in unison
Like a race of frightened orphans

The darkness of this raging storm
Is covering up our portals
But a yearning for the light
Is bourne in the heart of every mortal

Day to day we ache
With the pain that plagues Creation
Night to night we lie awake
And await its restoration

Heaven knows our lonely ways
Heaven knows our sorrows
And Heaven knows things that we don’t know
And the Joy of eternal tomorrows

But through this glass we dimly see
This world as it was made
Oh and the good we know
Must surely flow
From the heart of a kind Creator

So hold on in this restless age
And do not fear your shadow
Your alternating tears and praise
Are prayers that surely will matter

And day to day we ache
With the pain that plagues Creation
Night to night we lie awake
And await its restoration

Amen










 2006/3/23 15:36Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Quote:

TS wrote:

"We need not another Preacher (look at the wealth of sermons on just this site) we need not another revival at least of the type seen over the recent years (though they have some worth as is evident), we need God to “send” someone, anyone (check out the bio’s again on the disciples) with power on high to do what they did in Matt. 10. Then we will see the 250,000 christian denominations dissolved into a unified though smaller (many will bail when the purification comes) Body which will then be shaped, purified and made Holy enough to be given as a Bride to King Jesus. Since a young boy I have been trying to figure out what the key is that will turn Gods heart to “send” as he did in the New Testament....I still do not know. What I do know and am learning more and more is that the types of Revivals that are being promoted as God visiting these meetings complete with an “Open Heaven” guaranteed on the brochure is in my opinion simply going along with the crowd and admiring the Emperors clothes too afraid to say he has none."


TS, I wish that this is all that it would take but the truth of the matter is that Jesus lived that way and so did the twelve apostles, yet not only did there remain divisions based on doctrine within the religious community of Jesus day but these leaders refused to belief that the source of these miracles and messengers was God. Their stubborn hearts became so full of hate that they demanded Jesus death, cheered at the death of James, and participated themselves in the death of Stephen. Should we expect any less today.

I wrote a reply that relates to this on Linn's post Beautiful Gate that you may want to read.

Keep seeking the Father and praying with Jesus that the Father will give us unity among the brethren.

Jeff










_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/25 8:30Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: On the other hand...

Hi TS,

I find a great deal of agreement with much of what you have expressed here and yet just as much, a lot of confusion.

Quote:
We must first look at the term “revival” and give it some context I think.


That is without a doubt an understatement. To that effect was a partial reason for bringing up this most recent 'revival' that was linked. Because our tendencies are often to be the ones who do the determining and labeling, the quantitative expectations, the results ... We set the barometers and dictate to our own standards that which constitutes the outcome, let alone the reasons for what ultimately is something that only the Lord can do of His own choosing. That is a bit long winded way of saying maybe just this; Found this rather 'quiet' instance just recently worthy of mention for the same reasons that you are espousing, that it was noticeable by the conspicuous absence of many of the 'bells and whistles' that might otherwise draw the curious, the entertainment driven, the seeking of signs and wonders, in your own words;
Quote:
We have countless Christians going from meeting to meeting to be revived. I get sick when I hear and have even been to revivals or “encounters” with God where the “most favored” seem to get something the rest do not...such as gold flecked oil in there hands or some other “manifestation” of Gods presence. When all is said and done are we revived or just taking part in a structure of religiously overtoned self-gratification.


Taking off on that note a couple of things that I might mention here as well. Am unsure of just how much of what is available here on this site you have availed yourself of. By and large the 'types' if I may of those who participate here would side with you wholeheartedly in the excess's, the spurious, the counterfeit ... a simple search on Brownsville, Toronto would give a broad range of thought towards all this and no sense in re-opening much of past dialouge.

Your original question in the first posting while having some merit surely in the same excess's also brought about the question to mind in [i]"even those on this site".[/i] "Idolatry"? Frankly, I think that may apply in a general sense perhaps in the collective conscience of Christendom as the way you have been terming it by your definition and I don't think your definition there is far off at all. But here, I don't think that definition fit's and I appeal back to just what all you have absorbed of this site.

Perhaps what I am appealing to here is, it's just not that simple. Yes, one of the main reasons Greg started this site is to focus on revival. But of what sort? Of what ... [i]substance[/i]? I don't think it a reach whatsoever that the focus is predominantly a look backward, at history, at past revivals, at men of God who were used to suit the Lords purposes for those times, for His reasons and His outcomes. Finding this difficult to express correctly...

There is much to glean from here. It is an impossibility to peg 'us' as 'Charismatics' as it would be to label the whole 'non-denominational'.
Much has been said to this effect as well.
Quote:
I would ask is this the only form we need of revival in America?

That is problematic as well and continues to creep up here, this is far broader than just America. Greg is from Canada for one thing and a glance around these parts finds brethren from all over the world. To address this differently, if there is a place that needs a revival at this moment in time might it be [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=10011&forum=48&post_id=&refresh=Go]Uganda[/url] ? Give that a read brother, there can be a whole different perspective given to us all by things happening beyond our borders.

Quote:
We need not another Preacher (look at the wealth of sermons on just this site)


Again, unsure what you have gleaned here from the messages given, the articles available, the topics discussed, but they are vast and cover a multitude of Gods Word and Gods thought if I may. There is untold riches here that have been of such a help to the Body that we will never know their effect on the silent masses that have learned and grown by them, if the few that have expressed their appreciation, the changes wrought in them, the compulsion to become open air preachers, to dig deeper into Gods Word, to intercede as intercessors ... to be [i]made[/i] disciples, if just the few are any indication, a sampling (not a boasting) of what the Lord has done in and through all this; [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=2836&forum=16&post_id=&refresh=Go]Email Encouragements! - II[/url]

Quote:
we need not another revival at least of the type seen over the recent years (though they have some worth as is evident), we need God to “send” someone, anyone (check out the bio’s again on the disciples) with power on high to do what they did in Matt. 10. Then we will see the 250,000 christian denominations dissolved into a unified though smaller (many will bail when the purification comes) Body which will then be shaped, purified and made Holy enough to be given as a Bride to King Jesus. Since a young boy I have been trying to figure out what the key is that will turn Gods heart to “send” as he did in the New Testament....I still do not know. What I do know and am learning more and more is that the types of Revivals that are being promoted as God visiting these meetings complete with an “Open Heaven” guaranteed on the brochure is in my opinion simply going along with the crowd and admiring the Emperors clothes too afraid to say he has none.


Am with you on the "I don't know" department and the promoting is practically a guarantee that there wont be any.

Some other random musings from all this.

Have begged off this and shelved a lot of what I wasn't quite sure I even wanted to express in reading through all of it. Felt very much the Lord would have me to be silent for awhile on many things. Much of this has been sitting just under the surface I will admit, not stewing over it, but that it would often come repeating in bit's and pieces.

Found a curious and again sad compulsion that can come about here from time to time and do not want to overstate it as much as to hopefully just cause some reflection.

KingJimmy:
Quote:
I think this is perhaps why it seems Ravenhill was led astray near the end of his life by false prophets like Paul Cain and such. I mean, my God, by the end of his life he was pretty much singing the praises of these false prophets and you can see him being manipulated by them all throughout his Aneheim series on revival. They were able to flatter his desire, likening him unto Simeon of Luke 2, saying that before he would die that he would see the revival he longed for. Sadly, Ravenhill never saw the revival he longed for.


This is just horrible. Ravenhill needs no defending but this is another case of the same penchant that often arises here; It is either the attempt at lobotomizing live men's thoughts or tomb raiding dead men's souls. That is a huge assumption, especially if you are deriving this primarily from a moment in time towards the end of his life, to cast a pall over this mans long service with the Lord. Shameful. Haven't we been over this all before?
Quote:
On top of it, I think if we simply focus on "revival" we will have a tendency towards romanticism. I love Ravenhill and am greatly indebted to him, but I think he tended to suffer from this problem as well. Read almost any of his books where he talks about prophets, and this will be evident if you actually examine the Scriptures closely. Prophets weren't God's crisis men for crisis situations. Such might preach, but it's bad theology.


To take an idiom and make it a construct...
Find it very difficult to hear these sort of things, these criticisms. Re-read these things and look at just what it is you are addressing. Is it not a slight on his character that comes from these assumptions?

I do recognize that you stated [i]I love Ravenhill and am greatly indebted to him[/i] but in the same breath ... ?

It is puzzling that to do the quick word association with Leonard Ravenhill, the word that comes first to mind is not "[i]revival[/i]" but "[i]prayer[/i]". I can't but wonder if this isn't a case of '[i]finding only that which you are looking for.[/i]' What if you were to listen again with the ears attunded to the cracking of his voice and the beating of his heart? Granted, Len's style ... unorthodox would be an understatement and to hold him up any different than any other saint is absurd. Just as absurd though is the comments made regarding 'milk and meat' and the intimating of having 'graduated' Ravenhill. To make the statement denies the reality. [i]For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?[/i] 1Co 3:4. Besides, a great deal of this measuring of the 'size' of revival that he sought and that it never came to pass ... my goodness are we not back to stipulating outcomes again? Isn't this on the level of waste of Stephens great sermon that brought him down under a hail of stones? It may have produced the conviction and goads of Saul\Paul and [i]that[/i] could be the greatest revival that ever took place, but still... I realize I am mixing metaphors here. Moses never saw the promised land after all that he went through, but he certainly did see more than the beauty of land flowing with milk and honey ultimately.

I am somewhat sorry here. This is not a diatribe or anger, don't have a bone to pick with anyone and it is difficult to not address some of these things without making them appear more than just questions to ask and to think on. I do realize that there is a predominant bent towards the sensational and seeking the gift's more than the Giver in our day, so much of that has been addressed right here in all these available resources and from the sharing of others that have grown weary of it all.

Personally speaking, my prayer and plea is for the last great 'revival' summed up in the next to the last verse of Rev.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Coming full circle. There is some great messages here on revival that might broaden the horizons and perspective. Some that are hardly even know about, I know there is a really good posting that a brother put together towards this end, will see if I can dig it up.

But to answer the question broadly here, "Idolatry" and revival, I don't think so. Judging by numbers if we must, a glance at the topics in the forum would bear out something else. Seems the "Idol" is a 'couch'. ;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/25 12:19Profile
TS
Member



Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 Re:

Mike, thanks for taking the time to read/comment off what I wrote. I think I understand why you are a moderator...you do it well. I sense an underlying frustration at what is written and very likely justifiably so if you take it at the "word" value you see in print. Your responses are nothing but full of the Love of the Father for His body. I hope you will acknowledge we all are different parts of One Body and as such have different functions...I did not ask to be the way I am and constantly asking God to make me into what He wants (hoping it is different from what i seem to be). It seems that what I write is often critical and unclear and I will be the first to admit that it likely is. However my heart is not meaning to be that way...it is simply grasping in the dark at something that seems so close yet always out of reach. I hold this site in extremely high esteem and have spent a fair amount of time...listening to many sermons...reading many sermons and trying to act upon what I have digested. Praise God for the testimonies of those touched.

If I have an issue it is with the disparity of the messages that (seemingly) come from the One God. Not specific to the messages on this site but to the Body at large. I mean by this that they cannot all be right...on the simple yet profound gap involved with the thought towards the gifts of the Spirit moving in the present day one need look no further than comparing John MaCarthur and Brother Yun. Which message is right? And more importantly what do the differences really mean? If you go to MaCarthurs college web site (The Masters College) you will find that if you believe in the present day workings of Holy Ghost you have no business going to this college. My point again is who cares what you believe...WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

This is the frustration vented by my comment that we need not another preacher...for currently most are speaking just words...some agreeing, some diametrically opposed.

Give us one man who can do the miracles we as believers are commissioned to perform and watch the unsaved repent and fall in love with God. Being brought into the Kingdom of God and not of Denomination or "belief". You cannot fake creative miracle that replace limbs that are not currently there...you cannot manipulate a quadriplegic into getting out of his wheel chair and walking. These signs and wonders are our rightful inheritance as followers/believers in Christ. WHY ARE WE NOT ABLE TO WALK IN THEM?... maybe because we tickle our ears with all kinds of garbage that comes from the human mind/mouth. Scripturely we need to judge those in the body...not those in the world and then hold accountable what is said and done by these and all "leaders". I am not in the least able to describe what that looks like, only that it must be done.

Mark 16:15-20 says:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

How does a John MaCarther warrant a place as a leader in the Body if this scripture be true and he not repent of his stance on the movement of the Spirit? If the Holy Ghost is active and a current day phenomena then how can it be preached that He is not and expect no repercussions? In my mind it (the division) has brought the Body of Christ almost to a position of civil war on just this one subject. And it absolutely should be faced and confronted. I am trying to bring awareness to the strife within the Body not just to pick on one person. Judgment must first come to the Body...what can we offer the world without the purification? What can we offer to the "sheep" withing the Body until we are One with each other? What is being done about this strife? How can we the sheep be led by leaders who have no business leading? or are leading with false teachings...on this issue one side or the other is false there is no getting around this...the question not looked at much is how important is the issue? The same is true of the abuse within the Charismatic side as I have noted in previous psots. I cannot even explain it seems what I mean to say.

Why would non-christians want to join any portion of a House divided against itself? We need the Truth spoken in power with signs and wonders as confirming evidence of Gods approval. This will end the discussion of who is right and who is wrong or more importantly who we should follow.


What I am proposing next is a radical thought but my thought none the less. I am critical of hypocrisy and choose to expose it in the Body and confess it and repent of it as God teaches/disciplines me and makes me aware of it in my own life.
The Bible was not written for scholars but for the common man of which I am a prime candidate. With this in mind if the Bible says something it should not be disposed of through the intellect or because we cannot understand it...we need revelation from the Spirit not humanly thought up "reasons" for things.

I have recently run across a quote from a Carl Jung described as an eminent thinker and psychologist of the 1930's. His take on Criticism is this:

Criticism has “the power to do good when there is something that must be destroyed, dissolved or reduced, but it is capable only of harm when there is something to be built.”

At this point in the Western Church of this day and age it is time to destroy the religious system of which WE ARE A PART OF (obviously in my opinion...which is of equal importance to God as is any in His kingdom...but of no more value than any in His Kingdom as well---true value being based solely on the origination of the opinion...or more plainly, Is it Gods opinion as well?)---agai,n it is time to destroy this system of religion and start over. Then it will be time to take away the criticism and build up what end up being the true Church of the Remnant. As when Christ first came did he not destroy and make known the absolute corruption of the religious structure of the day and take his ministry to the dregs of society? What makes us think that it will not be the same as time runs down and the Day of the Lord approaches? This current system indoctrinated with the ways and wisdom of man is critically flawed and failing...you were somewhat confused at what I wrote (understandable so). I am totally confused by the church of this day and place. I speak of America often, mostly because I am in America...I cannot speak of what I do no know. I have heard Brother XU (sp) of China speak in person of what it is like in China (and watched the apathy reflected in the response to his testimony from the western Christian)...I have read the testimony of Brother Yun in Heavenly Man and what I see or understand from them is that it is not complicated over there it is simply torturous. In other words the confusion does not come from the Body but from the Devil as he tries to trip us there plans for the spreading of the Good News. In the Heavenly man it is notated that divisions amidst the House Church movement did not come until the Western denominations started pushing their agendas with the groups they were sending support to within China...this is a strong statement. Here it seems that we (the Body) work in cohorts with the Devil to keep the masses of Christians confused, demoralized and impotent or on the other spectrum fat, lazy and impotent. With all the “Scholars” in the Christian world why is there so much dis-unity? Why don’t they publicly discuss the differences they have with each other...pray publicly together beseeching the God they all profess as Master and Father to clarify the differences. This was the example to follow as in the disputes between Peter and Paul. The main and possibly root reason is Pride and we all know who the Father of Pride is and it is not the Father of Christ.

The above statement on destroying the “system” is something I am sure will upset many if many read it. I re-read it and cannot change it. We have lost our way. It is not a slight adjustment that needs to take place it is a re-invention. I believe that the judgment soon to come will make this happen. The system will continue to exist it will be the “One World Religious Structure” prophesied will come in the end. The true remnant the Bride will move out of the structure and into only God knows what but it will be real it will be true and it will be purified as having bought gold and white garments spoken of to the Laodician church. in Revelations. It is not commonly known in the Body as we are mostly illiterate about the end times...but consider that America is not listed as a player in the end times arena. What does this mean? Could it mean that we The Superpower of the day lose the position currently held in the world? How could this be? We must come off our high horse and know who raises the nations and who brings them down...in the matter of a day we could become irrelevant to the world. As we are not in the end time prophesy this is exactly what will happen...the question is how, how soon and who will step out of the catastrophe and walk in the power of the Lord?

Well I am sure I have confused any who read this...I am sorry. I feel a burning inside me whenever I start reading or writing on this site. I am going to be bold in what I say...wrong or right. I am appreciative of any criticism or disagreement. It will sharpen me. I do not pretend to know...I only speak what is on my heart, God knows who/what has put it there.

Mike I am amazed at your restraint and heart towards the Body...this site and the time you put into it is Heroic. This site is truly an instrument for the Body. Please try to find my heart in what I have written...

your quote:

Personally speaking, my prayer and plea is for the last great 'revival' summed up in the next to the last verse of Rev.

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

This quote is all I intended to put on this reply and a hearty agreement to it.
Time will tell if what I wrote is worth anything. Life seems to be a fire and the older I get the hotter it burns.

Peace and Love from the Father is my wish to you and all who profess the name of our Lord,
TS

 2006/3/27 4:32Profile





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