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 Re: Revival Idolatry

Quote:
I tend to think of this as His Mercy or more aptly put Mercy was crucified that day. For as Tozer puts it in his "Attributes of God" book. Mercy is not something God has...likening it to a commodity that he doles out. Mercy is what He actually is. Before Mercy was needed (by the fall of man for instance) Mercy still was.
His Justice or "Justice" itself as His name would actually be in this train of thought. Is the attribute that is coming when He is here as King. Without the Blood of the Cross...or Mercy...there will be only Justice.

TS,

While I 'get' what you're saying here, I would be happier to see the fulness of God given a greater perspective here. What Tozer wrote is fair enough, but the same could be said of all the great attributes of God - who is Light, Love, Truth, Life, Compassion (and so on).

The reason 'justice' is so important, is that it is all on God's terms. If we have a deepening understanding of the entity called 'Sin' - never forgetting that [b]He[/b] [u]has fulfilled[/u] [b]all[/b] the requirements [b]which He set[/b] for us to be delivered from it - then we will daily be awestruck by our inclusion in His Life.

It is possible to skip over the [i][b]meaning[/b][/i] of Christ's death and to fail to let it sink into one's understanding. Then the meaning of one's [i][b]inclusion in it[/i][/b] (being passed over), one is keen to get straight on to the benefits (of His Life) - the power to become a son, the authority, the charismatic gifts (and so on)......and often this is what is preached.

As time goes by, [Edit: I am [u]understanding[/u] and End edit] having more sympathy with the balance Frances Schaeffer said he would give in one hour of sharing the gospel - three-quarters on the wrath of God and fifteen minutes on His solution for it.

 2006/4/6 7:59
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Isn't personal revival not the same as being totally submitted to God? We can never do this out ourselves as this is totally opposing the wants of the flesh. We need to set our minds on God and His wants, neglecting our own if they conflict with God.

Its almost frustrating that I can know about revival and what to do but am so unable to get to it. Seems there is alot self left which doesn't want to die.

Seeking Gods face and with His grace getting rid of self is not idolatry. If everyone would do this we would have revival in no time. Unless I will be 'revived' myself I cannot effectivly pray for revival for others. (alto this does not mean that I can not or should not pray for them now)
As little I understand of revival myself I do know that we cannot 'create' one ourselves. We can only submit to God and let Him do the work.

Sorry if this goes out the discussion line, but I really felt I had to post this.


_________________
Jonathan Veldhuis

 2006/4/6 12:14Profile
jubilee
Member



Joined: 2006/2/13
Posts: 7


 Re: revival idolatry

Hello my name is Jubilee, I think what needs to be understood here is that God never gives us His attributes outside of Himself. He doesn't give us love, peace or joy but as we abide in Him His love, peace and joy flow through us. Love is a person, joy, and all the attibutes of God are a person. We have them as long as we are connected to the source. If we abide in Him we walk in these things because they walk in us. This is why when we behold Him we become like Him. We are changed from glory to glory into His image as we behold Him. The way I understand this is that if we focus on anything we become like it. If we drench ourselves in the stock market that is all we can talk about, If we study horses or food that is our conversation, but if we focus on God and His word and allow it to abide in us it will flow from us as well. As we take in more and more of Him He will spill forth to others. In Him we live and move and have our being. This is why those who watch violence and perversion go on to do such aweful things at times.

God wants us saturated with Him and we do that by abiding in the vine.

blessing and peace unto you
jubilee :-)

PS.

I would also like to say that just like when you go into a dark room and turn on the light the darkness is still present, but it is swallowed up in the surpassing greatness of the light, so are we in our walk with the Lord. We are flooded with His light as long as we walk in His light but when we step back into the darkness that is death to His presence. In light of revival I would suggest an awesome book by Frank Bartleman called Asuza Street Revival. It comes through prayer an intercession. It must be sought on a personal level. Our fellowship is persuing this very thing. Most of the body of Christ is just too busy to really seriously seek this. But I know that we will come to place where it becomes priority. Necessity will dictate that.

Jubilee

 2006/4/6 12:44Profile









 Re: Revival Idolatry

Quote:
Isn't personal revival not the same as being totally submitted to God?..

[b]Its almost frustrating that I can know about revival and what to do but am so unable to get to it. Seems there is alot self left which doesn't want to die[/b].

As little I understand of revival myself I do know that we cannot 'create' one ourselves. We can only submit to God and [b]let Him do the work[/b].

Sorry if this goes out the discussion line, but I really felt I had to post this.

Glad you felt you had to post it.
Quote:
Seeking Gods face and with His grace getting rid of self is not idolatry...

It can become an idol, though, if separated from the will of God. As we read scripture, and even as we hear those who believe they have experienced revival, it is always limited by place and generation (time), even including the move of God under John the Baptist's ministry.

The difference today is, that the Holy Spirit is [u]just as available [b]wherever you are[/b][/u]the world. Amen!

If one looks at the experience of the disciples, they had been baptised to repentance, before they received the baptism in the Spirit. One thing to be said for guilt, is that it should drive one towards God and all the more so, if He is preached as the only One who can remove sin for ever, through cleansing by the blood of the Lamb. This is a spiritual event, though, which as you say, cannot be manufactured or willed by man. God sees the heart, and gives it to those who are genuinely connecting with Him in spirit and truth, seeking that restored relationship with the Father.

 2006/4/6 13:12









 Re:

Quote:
I think what needs to be understood here is that God never gives us His attributes outside of Himself...

If we abide in Him we walk in these things because they walk in us. This is why when we behold Him we become like Him. [b]We are changed from glory to glory into His image as we behold Him. The way I understand this is that [u]if we focus on anything we become like it[/u][/b]. If we drench ourselves in the stock market that is all we can talk about, If we study horses or food that is our conversation, but if we focus on God and His word and allow it to abide in us it will flow from us as well. As we take in more and more of Him He will spill forth to others. In Him we live and move and have our being. This is why those who watch violence and perversion go on to do such aweful things at times.

[b]God wants us saturated with Him and we do that by abiding in the vine[/b].

Thanks, jubilee... good words, there.

 2006/4/6 13:16
jubilee
Member



Joined: 2006/2/13
Posts: 7


 Re: revival idolatry

Dear Dorcas,

I wasn't in on your original discussion. I was just curious about it. I am a pursuer of revival. I study revival through the writings and messages of the past. I am looking for one in the future. How about you? :-o

 2006/4/6 23:58Profile









 Re: Revival Idolatry

Quote:
I wasn't in on your original discussion. I was just curious about it. I am a pursuer of revival. I study revival through the writings and messages of the past. I am looking for one in the future. How about you?

Hi jubilee,

I wasn't in this thread till about page 8, and fell into it more by accident than intention.

To answer your question, I sat under 'preaching' that was supposed to bring 'revival' in a 'church' which was being led by a non-Christian who kept all the members very busy with outreach activities as often as he could.

I am not looking for revival in the terms I think most people who use that word, mean, but I am looking for opportunity to live out what God has put into my by His Spirit... To me, this means being able to relate my faith in a real way not only to my own life, but also to those who ask what I believe, and to be able to pray effectively for those whom the Lord puts in my heart. The most important thing (to me) is to live in His presence. From here flows everything that is worth holding on to, and there, everything which is not (worth holding on to), is made plain.

It is difficult to evaluate one's encounters with the Lord, because every one of them is vital, whether at the time it seems mindblowing, or just part of the normal flow of knowing Him. It [u]is[/u] very important to make one's faith work on one's own life, though, or the evangelism, preaching, reading/listening and wishful praying which we pour into our time, is a waste of that time.

This scripture comes to mind

(NKJV) Acts 5:4
"While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

If God wants something from us, He makes an issue of it until we deal with it before Him. Till then, we are free from constraint. I used to spend a lot of time doing things which looked right and spiritual, but, they were not done in His presence, or at His behest.

Maybe this isn't what you want to hear, but it's where I'm at.

What have you learned through your study, which you now think you [i]needed[/i] to know, and you think [u]will matter[/u] (to God) if revival happens?

 2006/4/7 8:12
TS
Member



Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 Re:

Hi Dorcas;

your quote:

"The reason 'justice' is so important, is that it is all on God's terms. If we have a deepening understanding of the entity called 'Sin' - never forgetting that He has fulfilled all the requirements which He set for us to be delivered from it - then we will daily be awestruck by our inclusion in His Life."

This is very true...to not take for granted the results of His Mercy is paramount for a better understanding of God. In order to "get it" we need to try and grasp His Holiness...one way to do this is to grasp our sin and the dirtiness of it. This is weak at best for because His Holiness is so much different than what we could possibly think. It may be poorly put in an analogy like this...if we lived in 1909 and were comparing a 1909 Ford Model T to a mysteriously appearing 2006 Ford Mustang GT. We may with the 1909 intellect surmise that the GT is in fact an automobile as is the Model T...but we would have no comprehension of the differences and what they may mean.

I am trying to say that His Holiness is so far beyond us...and should not be compared to what we think Holiness for humans is...(mostly because we in our fallen state have no idea what Holiness really is) Then you can go back to the Cross and be ever more grateful that One such as He would have anything to do with us.

The Justice required by sin and bestowed upon His son...simply raises the value to all three attributes involved...justice, mercy and Holiness

We deserve Hell...He gave us Mercy. And truly we not only deserve Hell...Hell is now (due to the fall) an attribute of humans...or we are HELL. Just as He is Mercy.

Blessings,
TS


 2006/4/7 22:42Profile









 Re: Revival Idolatry

Quote:
His Holiness is so far beyond us...and should not be compared to what we think Holiness for humans is...(mostly because we in our fallen state have no idea what Holiness really is)

Is it possible to agree this in the light of Peter quoting both Jesus and the Old Testament saying:

1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Look at what God is saying here...

Exodus 30:29
And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: [u]whatsoever toucheth them [b]shall be holy[/b][/u].

The HOLINESS is [u]contagious[/u].

Leviticus 11:44
For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and [b][u]ye[/u] shall be holy; for I [am] holy[/b]:

If this holiness could be achieved under the Old Covenant, then now, while we may feel we don't [i]understand[/i] the holiness which God imputes to us because of the Holy Spirit, it is going a step further to say that we cannot 'be' holy.

I would go further, and say that if we want to 'understand' His holiness, we should ask Him to reveal it to us and not let anyone tell us we cannot see it. Others before us have seen it...

 2006/4/8 10:57
TS
Member



Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


 Re:

I believe it can be agreed upon even in the light of the "be ye Holy for I am Holy". I think this speaks to our positional Holiness that is imputed to us once saved. In other words in the same way we can go before the throne room in prayer...by the Blood of Jesus, we also stand Holy before God. But the Holiness is not our own...it is Christs covering over us. If there is any sin in us...or even any sin we will ever again commit before we are seperated from the physical body...ie die. Then we cannot claim or "know" Holiness in the same way that God is Holy. We must also throw sins of ommission in this mix as well...how much sin do we commit just by not doing what we should?

I am thinking of the Holiness that is glimpsed at here: Issaiah 6:1-7

1In the year of (A)King Uzziah's death (B)I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
2Seraphim stood above Him, (C)each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

3And one called out to another and said,
"(D)Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts,
The (E)whole earth is full of His glory."

4And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the (F)temple was filling with smoke.

5Then I said,
"(G)Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of (H)unclean lips,
And I live among a (I)people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the (J)King, the LORD of hosts."

6Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the (K)altar with tongs.

7He (L)touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and (M)your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."

To me I think sin is contagious and Holiness something people think incorrectly about...We are Holy in position only...just as we are righteous positionally only before the throne. I do think that as we are led by the Spirit at times we may do Holy things or act in ways that are Holy...but always it is God working in us. Our flesh is right around the corner...some walk more Holy than others but it is all as filthy rags compared to Gods Holiness. I think it needs more explanation...

It may be a bit of splitting hairs in some ways...but we in the flesh can not assume either holiness or righteousness...that is part of full sanctification that we will reach when we get our resurrected Bodies...does this make sense?

As far as understanding Holiness...I think that my finite mind can but grasp little pieces of what must be looked at as a sum whole...once we see Holiness face to face.

TS



 2006/4/8 21:47Profile





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