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TS, despite the past, I hope you'll stay and let this place do what it does to us all. And I'm stepping out on faith for myself here too.

I hope by reading my posts to you, that you see that we could have easily straighten things out, just you and I at the time ... but it's hard to deal with a one on one when it becomes a two or three against one. Even cats never have group fights. Only one on one. I hope we can take a lesson from them. Except for "the couch" part :-) ... they sleep away 60 percent of their lives.

I'm glad you're here. You post longer posts than me and I needed someone to out-do me in that ... ha.

I was impressed with a few sentences in your third full paragraph above and your thoughts seem to be getting more developed.
That happens to all of us here, despite how old we are or how long saved. Keyboard communicating is hard enough.

Scripturally we need to judge those in the body ... not those in the world and then hold accountable what is said and done by these and all "leaders". I am not in the least able to describe what that looks like, only that it must be done.

I come here to be refined. But also to participate and hope for unity so that maybe we can see what you wrote in that quote and each person's gifts fine tuned.

We can be refined here. I've looked at all of the other Christian forums out there and they are mostly just debate and entertainment ... but the deep inner growth is lacking.
Our beliefs can be made more deeply embedded and Scripturally grounded in truth here, even if we disagree.
Many good bros and sis's here.
And Mike's post only refined your own, as he and others are working on me also. Though it is those who aren't trying to sometimes, that help me the most. They're my silent mentors so to speak. I just watch them. Occasionally they send a message straight to me and I'll pick up on it.

Watch for contradictions in your posts/thoughts though, as in one you will say unity and don't come against a group and then say 'tear down a system' in the next. Just a heads up ... and probably only coming from the same desires for Unity "and" Truth. The desires must be balanced or the imbalance will show in our writings.

Remember what Hudson Taylor said toward the end of his life ... something to the affect that, in his greatest prayers and sermons, he still saw the taint of flesh. (not what most think is sin, but "us" instead of purely Him)
We're not there, Phil 3, but Rom 8:28 got us here to this site, in His timing.

Let your first goal be, to allow this place to grow you and us.

Watchman Nee said, that any blessing you give out, is always mutually received by the one your delivering to and yourself. If we don't grow from our own sharing, then it's probably not His Spirit.

Bless you and hope you enjoy the mutuality of it all.

Feel free to post on the Unity vs Whatever thread. And get to know all the brothers here.

God Bless you here.

 2006/3/27 5:33

Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 352
Fort Frances, Ontario



Thank you for your insightful letter. First I would like to thank you for defending Leonard Ravenhill and the work he did. I don't see how anyone could "outgrow" Ravehill's teachings.

I especially liked the idol of today is the couch comment.

As long as your motivation to see revival is centered in Christ and his glory, it will never become an "idol".


Murray Beninger

 2006/3/27 9:05Profile

Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


Annie--thank you very much for your kind words. I actually did not feel that there was anything between us that we needed to clear up. I'm sorry it felt like a gang up on you. I am used to having people disagree with what I say a lot of the time, that is the beauty of this thing called "open forum". No hard feelings on my part for sure and I am blessed by your welcome and have no intention of leaving unless I am asked to do so which I pray does not happen. I do want to be refined as I participate...and this interactive chatting is a very different thing for me. It is hard to convey feeling when writing is not your strongest point and this type of communication has such a sharp edge to it.

I know I am very wordy...I guess I am knocking you out of this much coveted spot:)

I actually went back through the posts to refresh myself on what initiated the heated responses. While doing this I did find something that caught my eye...and reminded me to say that I (now knowing what it is) can empathize with the disdain shown for the WOF, and certainly would not want to throw salt on a wound. Naming and claiming in "ministry" is such a shallow and self-centered teaching that does nothing except put money in the "preachers" pocket and create extreme pain once the "sheep" has realized he has been "fleeced".

To move into another possible discourse,

Forgive me ahead of time but a quote you put in one of your posts stated this:

"Growth comes with desire, "blessed is he who hungers and thirsts after righteousness for he shall be FILLED."

But no where will you ever find that HE said, to sit around and "wait" .... He said, GO and DO the works that HE did and wants to do THROUGH us.

Please see, that the sheep are eating themselves to death in the fields and need to move."

I agree wholeheartedly with the growth comes from desire...but the desire itself is a gift of God. If He did not plant the desire for Him in us we simply would not desire Him at all.

As for the stop wait and pray phrase...I have to put these versus out because they are my weakest point...I hate waiting/watching and praying for any length of time. My strenght is in action...currently I am being made to do just this; watch and pray...I am not doing it well.

However their are versus to back it up:

Matthew 26:41
" Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Matthew 26:40-42

" Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Mark 14:37-39

The context is the Garden of Gethsemane and the disciples falling asleep instead of wathcing and praying as Christ directed. Is that the end of the lesson? Or is their a parallel to our christian walk and the directive to watch and pray...not just go and do.

Last the sheep eating each other comment is true...but what does this reflect but poor leadership or putting ourselves (the sheep) into the wrong fold. If Christ was allowed to lead, we would not have the mess called the "church" we now have. My question is how do you really go about letting Him lead? There seems to be as many answers to this as their are denominations. Is he really a leader that wears a different "hat" when he steps from one church to the next blessing and confirming all the differences within His own Body?

Blessings and His peace to you Annie as well.


 2006/3/27 10:17Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Just shin pads...

Hi TS,

Well done brother. Getting the gist of these things overcomes so much, namely that we are discussing our thoughts and testing, measuring, sifting everything, clarifying and further explaining, correcting. "Playing the ball, not the man."

If I have an issue it is with the disparity of the messages that (seemingly) come from the One God. Not specific to the messages on this site but to the Body at large. I mean by this that they cannot all be right...on the simple yet profound gap involved with the thought towards the gifts of the Spirit moving in the present day one need look no further than comparing John MacArthur and Brother Yun. Which message is right? And more importantly what do the differences really mean? If you go to MaCarthurs college web site (The Masters College) you will find that if you believe in the present day workings of Holy Ghost you have no business going to this college. My point again is who cares what you believe...WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

Have often ed dwelt on that question in the broad sense as you stated [i]which message is right[/i]? It may well be that the answer will always be a bit elusive. Here's a bit of musing from yesterdays notes;

[i]One of the great things about this place is the confounding of so much, the demolishing of so much presumption, the dismantling of 'denominational' constructs. It is a wonderful paradox to brood on.

How far different, to take just a cross section, is T. Austin Sparks from Keith Daniel, from Ron Bailey, from Art Katz, from David Wilkerson, from A.W. Tozer, from Zac Poonen, from Leonard Ravenhill? From Finney, from Wesley, from P.T Forsyth, from Watchman Nee, from Oswald Chambers, from C.H. Spurgeon, from Chip Brodgren, from Robert Murray McChenne, from Brother Lawrence, from Brother Andrew, from Paris Reidhead, from Ravi Zacharias, from Ray Comfort, from Ray Stedman, from R.A. Torrey, from Martin Lloyd Jones, from George Whitefield, from Stephen Kaung? Andrew Murray... Mueller[/i]

The 'easy' and perhaps even glib answer is, well, they all love the Lord or they are still brothers and all that is true. But I believe there is something intangible and further buried deep down than that which can be expressed easily. It is in part and maybe large part, character and just as well, personality. The above out-take there came about from a snippet out of T. Austin Sparks comments in another posting;


I repeat, then, that it was the glory of His personality as the Son of Man; for, almost in association with that, He spoke of His coming again as being 'the coming of the Son of Man in the glory of the Father'. This, so far as His perfecting was concerned, was not something that took place on the Mount. The Mount was the mark of the CONSUMMATION of His perfecting. I do not mean in the matter of sin - sinfulness or sinlessness - but the perfecting of His character, the perfecting of that inner man which we call personality. Personality is a strange thing, an elusive thing, something that you cannot get hold of, but you cannot mistake; it is THE person within - the man inside. Now, He, in that inner life of His, had worked out this whole matter of God's pleasure, God's satisfaction, through His life. There was the Divine approval at His baptism in similar words, indicating, probably, that His thirty years were approved; certainly indicating that the step that He was now taking, right out into public, with the Cross accepted (for His baptism certainly implied that) was approved. That brought the word from Heaven: 'My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased'.

~T. Austin Sparks
Men Whose Eyes Have Seen the King

Had really saved these up for a different reason (or season) but maybe it is worth the expression after all, here's the rest;

[i]Mix them up in any order and add in how many others, and pardon the unintentional expression, what a band of mis-fits! It is a wonderful blind ignorance that I could hardly tell which particular labeling by 'denomination' a great deal of these 'worked out of', the point being .... who cares! But it is much broader and all encompassing if we might allow ourselves to take note beyond the mere lip service of this central truth and I will dare to utter it; "Unified"

Just from this random sampling. The timelessness alone something to grasp. Across cultures and generations, circumstances. Add in the persecuted and the missionaries; Livingstone and Wurmbrandt, K.P Yohannan, Hudson Taylor, Rolland Allen, the names listed in Foxe's Book of Martyrs ... Running these partially from memory, partially from the ever growing collection.

The collective thought and the marked differences of particulars, secondary they be. Mix in the saints. Paul and Moses, Peter and Elijah, John and Joseph, Mark and Issiaha, Luke and Jeremiah. Stephen and Phobe, Mary and Mary's, Titus and Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius, Epaenetus, strange names, 'obscure' names. Dare to throw your own hat into the mix. The 'great company of witness's'. Your heritage, your history, your family.

What's the point? Not all of these names are necessarily 'here'. Some have been salvaged and still speak audibly. Some written, some both. Some by extension and recommendation. Some the scriptures themselves. At one point in our lives, they were all foreign to us.

"And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Mar 3:32-35

This is what makes this more than just some 'place'. Another in the mix of many? It is distinct in intangibles, in a variety of expression. It is a schooling and a disciple making venture, a seminary of the Spirit ... I believe it to be a 'revival' in and of itself, more than even the pointing to and longing for something of the sort and substance of those in the past. Is it because it tends to dwell on all these 'old', 'dead' 'past' saints? In a word. Yes! Precisely!

But it is not a certain romanticism or nostalgia. It is not a thousand things. It is certainly not the trend of the day, the aptly put "chronological snobbery" that would put this in it's own category and lock it up as 'past'.

Coming here, what, 3 years ago now? Hardly a few of these names I knew, including those in the scriptures. By that I do mean 'knew' or 'know' in the deepest aspect of that meaning. Not so much 'personally', though in certain ways the gleaning of thought brings a certain familiarity. Members of this forum, having come to know by all the interaction and fellowship. Circumstances of our lives shared, the many prayers... But to appeal back to the verse in Matthew; "Behold my ______"



Well, that's quite a mouthful and I am unsure just how well the thought translates here. I think what a large part of what you are suggesting is already taking place brother. There is always going to be a disagreement on any number of particulars. John MacArthur might well be a great case in point. I am very indebted to him for being one of the voices that caused me to think about a lot of what I was suppressing while being taken up with the whole WOF\Prosperity, 'easy believism' of our day. Something was amiss and I knew it somehow and like many that first hear of their favorite teacher\preachers being questioned the auto reflex kicks in and the defending starts up, it took some time to process and come to grips with.

I guess I continue to be of the mind that nothing is that easy anymore. Confusion abounds. It is possible to glean from all of the above saints mentioned and not have to be taken with the particulars. I can both empathise with a MacArthur that finds the abuse of so called 'gift's of the Spirit' as they are largely understood and defined in this day as just so much hogwash to put it bluntly as I can with the fact that I would never begin to believe that none exist or that they have since 'ceased'. What it truly boils down to is, are they authentic? Genuine? And maybe the biggest question in the circles that run away with this heavy emphasis on them ('signs and wonders' not to be excluded) is, does it matter? Seemingly, the answer is by and large, no. It is overwrought with a very disinterested, casual sloppiness, carelessness comes to mind. Rarely are the 'prophets' or their 'prophecies' called on the carpet, the majority of them are met with a shrug and a forgetfulness... How many of the things uttered in the last 20 years have ever come to pass? Most things are explained away or pushed out into an undetermined future. Think it was Oswald Chambers who may have summarized it wholesale; "Prove it." The lack of remorse and shame, the flippancy and ease of speaking in the Name of the Lord, it's incredible and frankly frightening.

That's quite a bit and would be sure this is a lot of preaching to the choir. One trailing thought came from a brother here awhile back elsewhere and the starkness of honesty found a similar appreciation, paraphrased;

"I don't know what the Lord is doing."

Me neither. And I am not sure it is really 'signs and wonders' of the sort we might think is needed.
Without a doubt though, whatever they may be, let them be authentic, let them be tried and tested, undeniable, proven. Changed dispositions and transformed lives are indistinguishable proofs, without argument and what is always agreeable to the same Spirit that dwells in us and to those who have gone before us. It's the only unity there is and really the only 'wonder' ultimately.

Appreciate your Spirit brother, am stumbling around in the dark just as well.

I know I am very wordy...I guess I am knocking you out of this much coveted spot:)

Nice try ;-)

Mike Balog

 2006/3/27 10:29Profile

Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49


Hi again...and I appreciate the grace to have said what I did with no condemnation laced in your reply.

this quote from you crsschk is exactly right. (to me)

"What it truly boils down to is, are they authentic? Genuine? And maybe the biggest question in the circles that run away with this heavy emphasis on them ('signs and wonders' not to be excluded) is, does it matter? Seemingly, the answer is by and large, no. It is overwrought with a very disinterested, casual sloppiness, carelessness comes to mind. Rarely are the 'prophets' or their 'prophecies' called on the carpet, the majority of them are met with a shrug and a forgetfulness... How many of the things uttered in the last 20 years have ever come to pass? Most things are explained away or pushed out into an undetermined future. Think it was Oswald Chambers who may have summarized it wholesale; "Prove it." The lack of remorse and shame, the flippancy and ease of speaking in the Name of the Lord, it's incredible and frankly frightening."

The only addtional thing I see to be thought about is how does this train of thought or "easy accountability" work or apply to the non-chrismatic camp?
If you don't move in the can you go wrong?

It is indeed an outragous thing to speak the "Word" of the Lord and be deluded at best and deceptive at worst. Most people would rather be safe than sorry and hence the conservative world of Christianity. We (humans) think the Lord is asleep because He does not send the lightning...making us even more brazen in our mockery of His Word. He is slow to anger but His Justice will come. Thank God for the Cross and repentance.


 2006/3/27 15:11Profile



TS wrote:

... that is the beauty of this thing called "open forum".

I do want to be refined as I participate ... and this interactive chatting is a very different thing for me. It is hard to convey feeling when writing is not your strongest point and this type of communication has such a sharp edge to it.

I know I am very wordy...I guess I am knocking you out of this much coveted spot:-)

You've said a mouthful here that I can fully relate to and Thank you also for your forgiveness and most of all understanding.

Good cheer.


 2006/3/27 15:33

 Re: Revival Idolatry

Hi TS,

I've been thinking about this that you said:

[b]but His Justice will come[/b]

and wondering if you have any scripture in mind to back it up? (I've always thought that the cross of Christ was His justice, much as He said no other sign would be given (apart from of Jonas the prophet Luke 11:29)

I tend towards the opportunity to which Paul exhorts us in 1 Cor 11 - that we should judge ourselves - knowing that judgement will begin at the house of God. (1 Peter 4:17)

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this reason many [are] weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

 2006/3/31 14:35

Joined: 2006/2/12
Posts: 49



my thoughts to your question of my quote--"His justice will come" is exemplified by this verse for one....

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah (capital of Edom), this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?-- "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." 2 Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? 3 "...I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes. 4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart..." (Isa. 63:1-4)

This speaks to the end when Christ comes and squelches the "rebellion" if you will.

There is a whole end time scenario I posted on another thread...a perspective that I hold to be true. It is very long and comprehensive as to the Justice that will be brought when Christ is King not only in name but actually on the earth in His resurrected body. (it is under the scripture and doctrine thread...called "Pre-Tribulation Rapture")

your quote:

"I've always thought that the cross of Christ was His justice"

I tend to think of this as His Mercy or more aptly put Mercy was crucified that day. For as Tozer puts it in his "Attributes of God" book. Mercy is not something God has...likening it to a commodity that he doles out. Mercy is what He actually is. Before Mercy was needed (by the fall of man for instance) Mercy still was.
His Justice or "Justice" itself as His name would actually be in this train of thought. Is the attribute that is coming when He is here as King. Without the Blood of the Cross...or Mercy...there will be only Justice.


 2006/3/31 21:47Profile

 Re: Apostasy Revealed

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Oh yeah, The Whole World is Waiting for an Encounter .... that's for sure .... and boy are they gonna get it along with the majority of Revival seekers.

It's called the Strong Delusion.

And because I've been physically disabled and out of the loop for a while, I had fallen behind on the "latest Prophets" until today ... April Fool's Day ... and what a fool I've been.

I just spent this whole morning feverishly researching and digging into many of the more newer names that have come up around here lately and I'm the fool for not doing it sooner.

My my, don't we have a flood of Prophets lately.

What a wake up call I've had today. But at the same time it feels like my heart is being ripped right out. How can I reverse all that's been taught here with an ample amount of Scripture.
Please please go to some of these sites that explain what this "revival stuff" is about.
Like Tricia Tillin's site or any of the Discernment Ministry Sites that fight day and night to keep us safe. Please.

The only Encounter there's going to be is the Strong Delusion, because we've been well into the Apostasy from Truth for a long time now.

And any "supernatural" phenomena that we see that hits the majority will be straight from the pit of hell.

Seeking signs and wonders, etc. etc. and all that I've heard on here of late has been overwhelming and all the recent "articles" by these new Prophets and Teachers have just about leveled me in disbelief that we stand on some of the greatest Authors this world has ever seen and right behind them or along side them, we're bringing in the world's greatest and Last Deception ... the Mother Load of Deceptions.

I don't care if they write against one group of "Prophets" only to set themselves up as another group and that is what I see from this Andrew Strom and those like him.
It's still all heading to the same conclusion and delusion. Please pray and get back into the Word Only for a good while and ask God to not let you be deceived.

The only Revival there will be on a grand scale will be the Strong Delusion and that is it.

Now I understand why my heart's been so terribly unsettled lately. I've left the narrow way and opened my heart and mind to a delusion that I knew less than a year ago was a False Teaching.

Now I know why I've felt to post STICK TO THE WORD ONLY for these almost 6 months here.

God have Mercy.

God Have Mercy On Us All.

 2006/3/31 22:37

 Re: Apostasy Revealed

What have we done ?

Seek God while He can yet be found. Please.

Please [url=]SEARCH.[/url]. Read some of these articles then return to this Search page and go to every website this Search page offers and look at them all if you care to hear what is happening to us. Please, the deception in the Church and in the world is moving faster than even what I thought.

I don't matter worth a hill of beans but for your families this must be researched and the truth be known with a clarity like you've never had before. Please don't let anything lull you back to sleep or into complacentcy or go along to get along mentality of passivity of mind or spirit. I'm appealing to you, please ask God in Heaven to show you what we're being set up for.
Please don't come against testing all things and trying all things against His Word. Come against me but not The Word who was made flesh and spoke through His Word. He loves you all so much. Lord have mercy on us all.

 2006/4/1 5:44

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