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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A pastor, husband of one wife?

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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: law and grace

Earlier I asked if someone would let me know where in the Bible is says that a divorced person cannot be a spiritual leader. Since it seems not to exist, I have to come to one conclusion: It must be man’s law added to God’s law. That is something that has been going on since Eden. Eve made one slight addition to God’s law: ‘AND you must not touch it”

Adding to God’s law has negative consequences:
It leads to sin.
It drives people away from God.
It tempts them to make their own path in life, and chuck out God’s laws (assuming that all God’s laws are unreasonable).
It lays yokes on people that they are unable to bear.
It leaves people in bondage to condemnation that God never put on them. Ex: If Eve merely touched the fruit, she would have experienced guilt, which would then have distanced her from God - just what Satan wanted.

Christ did not die for violations to man-made laws – only for violation to God’s laws.
Therefore God cannot extend forgiveness for what is not sin against his laws.

Those who are divorced and are leaders may be condemned in man’s court. However those very judges do not offer the “offender” any way out, any mercy - only life-long condemnation. Consider how Jesus must view this.

I often feel that the most misunderstood word in the entire Bible is this one: Mercy
Many seem to equate mercy with permissiveness. But the two are opposite.

Mercy, is God’s solution for sin against GOD’S laws. There has to be a perfect holy divine law before there would be any need for mercy. So why do those who say “We need to have Mercy” get accused of “lowering God’s standards?” Mercy keeps God’s standards where they should be – very high.

I saw a post pointing out that there are MORE divorces in the church than in secular society. This should not be surprising. It is the outcome of adding to God’s laws, and also of failing to practice mercy. (among many other things) This is why psychiatrists say that the church keeps them in business. These troubled people break under a yoke of guilt and condemnation laid on them and they can’t find the way out (mercy). What a sad commentary of the church: our inability to promote healing of the heart, soul and spirit that Christ offers. We stay stuck in the laws – and that leads to condemnation and destruction.

I see that Romans 7 was used to underline the importance of marital fidelity. However, those scriptures are illustrating our relationship to law and Christ. We may use them to uphold marital faithfulness, but at the same time they may be condemning us for spiritual infidelity – trying to have two husbands at once – law and grace.


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/10 23:22Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Diane, to go along with your post:

An aspect that I have not read in all these posts are the children?

Michelle Gauthier, founder of Defending Holy Matrimony said this [i]“All it takes is one confused spouse who thinks that divorce will solve their unhappiness, and when that one spouse visit’s a lawyer, they place the entire family in the hands of a hostile court system. Children become wards of the state, and all marital assets are controlled by the courts. It is truly a tragedy.”[/i]

Judith Wallerstein in her book The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce writes [i]“National studies show that children from divorced and remarried families experience more depression, have more learning difficulties, and suffer from more problems with peers than children from intact families.”[/i]


And it gets worse, besides the more obvious results of rampant divorce, such as the massive growth in single-parent homes, Judith Wallerstein continues [i]“virtually every major personal and social pathology can be traced to fatherlessness more than to any other single factor.”[/i]

Equally alarming, although largely unrecognized by most people is the expansion of government power to which rampant divorce has given rise. Howard University professor of political science Stephen Baskerville has reported [i]“the result of three decades of unrestrained divorce is that huge numbers of people, many of them government officials now have vested professional and financial interest in encouraging the break up of the family. Divorce today is not simply a phenomenon; it is a regime, a vast bureaucratic empire that permeates national and local government. In the United States, divorce and custody comprise over half of civil litigation constituting the cash cow of the judiciary and bringing employment and earnings to a host of public and private officials including lawyers, psychotherapists, mediators, counselors, social workers, child support enforcement agencies and others. This growth industry derives from the impact of divorce on children.”[/i]


I can attest to this, the only winners when one decides to go to the courts to solve their marital problems are the attorneys. Glenn Stanton from Focus on the family summarized it best [i]“Looking back at America’s decades-long divorce experiment, while adults suffered terribly, children fared even worse. Many saw the innocence of childhood evaporate the day their parents announced the divorce. Children crippled by anxiety, possessed by anger, immobilized by fear, they were different children. In fact they didn’t see themselves as children any longer. Divorce forced them to become adults, even before they became teens.”[/i]

Is it any wonder God says He hates divorce? And as well, with children in the mix we come back to the qualities of a Church Leader, one who rules his own house well, for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the Church of God? (I Timothy)


tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/10 23:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """I believe due to the growing numbers of divorced and remarrieds, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find men who fit the biblical requirements for leadership."""

I don't think anything has changed, was Moses, Abraham, David, or any of the other's in the bible except Christ, that deserved leadership?

Moses, a murderer, and one that disobeyed God directly by hitting the Rock which is a picture of Christ and the Living Water we are born again in spirit unto regeneration and salvation. Abraham, adultery with his own wife's handmaiden. David, murder and adultery with another mans wife, and on and on.

There is only one that is perfect enough to be considered for service and that is Christ. This is the One that any of us need to depend on to consider any of ourselves to be as even Paul considered in Timothy and Titus. All of Paul's whole Gospel is, has this premise and that premise is Christ in us the Hope of Glory. The more we understand The Christ in us as our life and the whole being as our life in Christ to be our pattern and ability of having any ability to claim any leadership role in the Church, it is Christ in you the hope of Glory, and most especially nothing we can accomplish in anything we do. 2 Timothy 1:7-12 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

This is the simple climax to any person in the Christ that has any capacity to be in any position of authority or leadership, it is The Christ that is in us that is the Head of The Church that must lead us, not men of good reputation that can fail at any time unless they are filled with the Spirit of Christ and The Holy Spirit is guiding them in all truth. This is who we should put our leadership roles upon, Christ, Not men.

Yes, I will catch all kinds of hell for making this declaration, the first one will be, yes that is a beautiful picture of what the Church should be but we are just sinful men saved by grace and we will sin just like anyone else and we must show by our works that we can lead in the Church. Wrong! We can only lead by the Christ that is in us. This is the only way.
1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

This is the knowledge we need in the Church. We need to quit quizzing each other about should we do this or should we not to that or is he or she capable or do they meet the qualification of what man has conceived that a person should be to be able to serve Christ in His Church. It is Christ not us. Colossians 2:2-8 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

This all takes place in our mind by submitting to the Mind of Christ that is in us. That we know. That we know. That we know. 1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby (know) we that we are in him.

1Jo 2:29 If ye (know) that he is righteous, ye (know) that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we (know) that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:5 And ye (know) that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye (know) that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 3:19 And hereby we (know) that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we (know) that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby (know) we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.

1Jo 5:15 And if we (know) that He hear us, whatsoever we ask, we (know) that we have the petitions that we desired of Him.

Who are we to know, This is just John's words of God. Wait till you hear Paul's, I could list them but it would take up to much. 146 times we are in Christ, just a few, just in Col 2:

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

So many, many times in Christ, this is our qualifications for serving in His Church, it is IN HIM. Paul always tells us how to live and what to do in the Church, but he never leaves out the power and the strength of doing it. IT IS IN CHRIST, CHRIST IN US, PAUL NEVER LEAVES IT TO US TO ACCOMPLISH, IT ALWAYS CHRIST IN US THAT GIVES IS LIFE AND HE ALSO SAYS IT CAME DIRECT FROM JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BY DIRECT REVELATION.
PAUL IS THE ONLY ONE EXCEPT JOHN THAT LEFT THIS EARTH AND ALSO SPOKE DIRECTLY TO JESUS, WHETHER IN THE SPIRIT OR ON THIS EARTH DOES NOT MATTER.

JESUS IS OUR LIFE.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Is this not the whole purpose of the Church? We are to be perfect in Him. Us in Him, Him in us, this is the Body of Christ the Church.

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2006/3/11 1:08Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Know in theory or in reality

Quote:
“virtually every major personal and social pathology can be traced to fatherlessness more than to any other single factor.”

This is true. I've heard it too.

Also it is said that divorce is the most traumatic experience a child can receive. The damage is incalculable to them as individuals and to society in general.

This is why we need to be facilitators of relational and spiriutal healing. It is abundantly clear in the Bible that applying law - and embelishing law with man's "wisdom" DOES NOT WORK. It never did. God has a far better way and he announced in the OT.

Consider the final verse of the OT: "He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of thier children to their fathers... "Mal. 4:6

We are called to cooperate with God's solution if we are to effect change. Sadly many in the Body only know ABOUT that solution. They can tell you all about it. But it is not part of their own reality. I have seen some of that even here in this thread. They feel very justified in wounding others in their defence of the law. They have eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, and a mind but cannot understand. They need to have their own Damascus Road Experience.

I address all who fear I may be implying an accusation against them. That is not my job, it is the job of the Spirit. Please ask him if you are guilty, and be willing to receive whatever he reveals to you, no matter how painful or humiliating it feels - it is the path to spiriual awakening - to revival for you! Any urge to defend your righteousness may possibly be an indication that your consciense is being pricked by the Spirit.

I don't like to inflict wounds on anyone, but as has been said here, Jesus and Paul sometimes inflicted wounds (to the conscience)but it was towards those who were hardened in their hearts, who had trouble feeling pain (guilt for their sin, or empathy for sinners)- those who insisted on their spiriutal righteousness. On the contrary the oil of gladness, the balm of healing, and he joy of the Lord was administerd to the broken and contrite sinners. They were set FREE FREE FREE!!!!!

What is the Spirit saying to you? I'm not convinced that any of us are ever fully "off the hook", for legalism can exist in very insidious ways. It takes a continual work of the Spirit to crucify it.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/11 6:54Profile









 Re: Pastor, husband of one wife?


Quote:
To be clear, I am not implying anyone who against remarriage is wanting divorcees to be hurt, or is indifferent to their hurts. [b]I am implying that people who are [u]against all remarriage[/u] are willing to accept, for the sake of their personal convictions, that some people [u]will be hurt[/u][/b].

Discussions like this remind me how fortunate a man I am. My wife of 15 years is a profound joy who is very easy to be married to. I suppose I could feel good about that...but in reality it makes me feel unworthy of some brothers and sisters more noble then I, who have profound testimonies of the Lord bringing them through shocking and villanous treatment from their spouses.

Compton,

Your clear thinking head is always a blessing to me. I appreciated this post very much, especially the sentence I have put in bold. My experience of the Lord is that He wants to heal all hurts... that He can and that He does if we allow Him close enough.

It grieves me to have to accept your statement. I think in the past, I would have been one who qualified in that category, because I wanted doctrine and the outward appearance of the church to be neat and tidy for the world to see. It was not till I left my own husband, that I found out [u]how little help there [b]is[/b][/u] [i]within the church[/i] for people who have [i]good reason[/i] (as you say) to separate first, and then come to terms with divorce - which is the practical way to sort out financial support with some ex-spouses.

So you try not to feel any guilt about enjoying a good marriage. You're doing the right thing if it is a true picture of the love within the Godhead. Amen.

Quote:
Is this not the whole purpose of the Church? We are to be perfect in Him. Us in Him, Him in us, this is the Body of Christ the Church.

Phillip,

I was edified by your post. Thank you. It truly reminded me of where our strength lies - in Him - and where we are to hide our souls.

Quote:
What is the Spirit saying to you? I'm not convinced that any of us are ever fully "off the hook", for legalism can exist in very insidious ways. It takes a continual work of the Spirit to crucify it.

Diane,

Thank you for the challenge and the reminder. I had so much to say about other people's marriages when they were threatening to fail, it left me completely silent when I had to leave my own.

 2006/3/11 11:37
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: the vanishing accusers

Dorcas said,

Quote:
I had so much to say about other people's marriages when they were threatening to fail,it left me completely silentwhen I had to leave my own.


I see a crowd of stern-looking accusers standing around Jesus. I see a woman in the center of them, huddled on the ground, in total humiliation, crying. She has just been dragged there - onto center stage. All eyes are on her and on Jesus....

then............. (and we all know the story) .... later..... Jesus asks her a question:

"Where have they gone? ....


And indeed they have all vanished...

... dispersed into thin air.

Now only SILENCE can be heard.


That is the blessing of meeting Christ. He sends all the accusers away. We don't hear their voices any more. Because now we hear the voice of the true Shepherd.

.. ....Now I see the woman walking back home, dancing, feeling like she is walking on air. One man had come into her life and now she sees herself in a new light. Why would she ever want to go back to her former ways again!




PS Dorcas, Can you "hear" the SILENCE?....



I think I can!



No one is left to condemn you.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/11 12:54Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Yes, indeed I hear the silence and as the billboards all around Kansas City right now read “The silence is killing us.” referring to violence on the streets and our citizens not coming forward exposing the evil, giving a hand to lift up the down-trodden, not willing to shine the light, but rather remaining silent in our homes behind barred windows and doors, the home alarm set and just getting used to the dark. And my opinion this holds true in the Church of Jesus Christ, remaining silent yet our marriages, families, the innocence of children are being destroyed. And having said that, Diane I do understand your comments concerning Jesus and this woman.

I live in the United States and was born in the late 60’s, and thus would like to take a look at how my country in such a short time (my lifetime) has crippled civilizations primary institution marriage, which has ushered in no-fault divorce with amazing speed.

Breaking a marriage contract today is nearly easier than firing an employee or getting out of a cell phone contract. And in regards to contract, how can we even say it is a contract when either party has the power to end the contract at any time, for any reason, whether or not the other party agrees.

What should be the binding, hard to break nature of the marriage contract inherently protects both spouses especially in those times when there is difficulty and conflicts and one is contemplating ending the marriage. But no-fault divorce destroys that protection.

Again, in my lifetime during my childhood and beyond listen to some of the extreme views that were being espoused, which found its way into public policy in my country and Christian thinking and behavior.

[i]“We have to abolish and reform the institution of marriage … By the year 2000 we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God….We must understand what we are attempting is a revolution, not a public relations movement.”[/i]
-- Gloria Steinem, quoted in the Saturday Review of Education, March 1973

[i]“Being a housewife is an illegitimate profession… the choice to serve and be protected and plan towards being a family maker is a choice that shouldn’t be. The heart of radical feminism is to change that.”[/i]
-- Vivian Gornick, professor University of Arizona, Daily Illini April 1981

[i]“The legal rights of access that married partners have to each other’s persons, property, and lives makes it all but impossible for a spouse to defend herself (or himself), or to be protected against torture, rape, battery, stalking, and mayhem by the other spouse… Legal marriage thus enlists state support for conditions conductive to murder and mayhem.”[/i]
--Claudia Card, professor University of Wisconsin-Madison 1996

Some will remember much of this from that era, my point in posting these radical statements is, when these views left the front pages of main stream consciousness along with the Beatles, LSD and the whole 60’s scene America did not just snap back to “normal” we had been transformed. Yes these ideas in my opinion are radical, but the core agenda has seemingly become our reality and today a generation later, here we are debating issues like cohabitation, divorce, same-sex marriage, civil unions, polygamy and the redefinition of marriage almost oblivious that our homes, Christian or non-Christian have been very systematically crippled by the advent of no-fault divorce.

This post has become rather lengthy, and from experience are not often read when to long so I will continue later.

If this has departed from the theme of this thread I will be happy posting to another thread.

tonys





_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/11 13:16Profile









 Re: Pastor, husband of one wife?

Quote:
Several people have told me when discussing the issue of divorce remarriage with unbelievers, the unbelievers have stated that they do believe it adultery to marry again after a divorce.

Cindy,

Over several threads now, I have read your posts, and I am [i]slowly[/i] coming to the conclusion that you have no experience of the kind of scenarios in which God Himself leads people out of their marriages. Mostly, you show no understanding of the reality that there are people who give up their faith in Christ, or, who were nominal Christians when they got married, and finding themselves married to a real Christian, decide against going through with God personally. At this point, no matter what it was before, it is not a 'Christian marriage'. The believer is no longer bound by the terms of a marriage in which both partners are Christians.... no matter how much they wish they still were ... The fact is, the believer [u]cannot[/u] (and should not try to) [i]control[/i] their spouse.

But, there is another world, in which wicked and evil people take delight - and I MEAN 'delight' - in setting out to destroy the human being who has unknowingly proceeded into marriage with them. These are men (usually, but women too), if their 'sins' were brought before a Court of law, would be locked away in the psychiatric wing of a prison, or the locked wards of psychiatric hospitals. I'm not saying there is no hope for these people, but the Holy Spirit does not hang around them on their [i]insides[/i], even if He hovers right over them all the time.

Whether they ever professed a faith in Christ has become irrelevant. When Jesus mentioned 'porneia', He was talking about those who still had enough sanity and sexual desire to seek illicit relationships and find them. He understood the pain of rejection which the abandoned party would feel, and said that was sufficient justification to divorce ([u]and remarriage[/u]).

Forgiveness becomes an issue when a brother or a sister is genuinely trying to reform, who 'turns' round and says 'I repent' seven times a day. Jesus says we are to forgive them. Jesus does not say we [i]have[/i] to go to bed with them, though, if we are married to them and they are hurting us. In a marriage, it very much depends what is the matter being asked for forgiveness, whether that has anything to do with holding the marriage together.

Unless EVERY DAY, individuals BELIEVE IN JESUS, they may, by John's standards, not actually 'be' Christians any more. God does not desert them immediately; of course He doesn't; but when mean and intentionally cruel behaviour becomes the way of life of one (or both) spouses, no-one who can see what is going on (as God can) would call it a [i]Christian[/i] marriage any more. This is what I want you to take on board in your thinking. Women (and men) whose 'other half' have manifestly ceased [i][b]loving[/i][/b] them, are freed from the strictures they took on in the marriage ceremony.

They do have to go through a legal process to undo those legal strictures, but, they are not SINNING, to admit to themselves and the world, that they are no longer [i][b]married[/b][/i] to the person with whom they are living, in the spirit of that covenant.

Additionally, please bear in mind that those mean and cruel people who thought it would be convenient to have a legal spouse to keep house for them, and chose a Christian because they expected fidelity, even if they did not expect to [i]give[/i] fidelity, are not going to move out first. They are going to put on the screws until the other person loses their mind, rather than 'leave' in a decent way, because of the believer.

Your continual desire for Christian spouses to be forbidden a second marriage, is deeply disturbing, unless you really do believe that God would prefer they never know the love of a real spouse, the relief of emotional security, and the help and friendship of a safe partner for living (and often too, for helping to bring up children).

There is one last thought, which may apply less to you than some others... this. It may be that the desire to condemn second marriages which brings a warm glow of satisfaction within (you/them, and those who have divorced a second spouse believing it to please God), are really giving satisfaction to a [i]religious[/i] spirit, and not to the Holy Ghost at all. I'll justify that statement with this scripture:

John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

There is liberty in Christ. I know the scriptures you use to justify your position, but, they are not a comprehensive overview of marriage in scripture as GOD HIMSELF allowed it. The very first instruction to mankind, was to multiply. God has not forgotten that, even though Jesus said it is ok for people to remain single for the kingdom's sake.... Even Jesus left that open.

People whose unreasonable behaviour is not a temporary blip on occasional days, (who with a bit of serious work under God's guidance, can change), or who set out to control others, are not Christians.

There should be no way they can end up [i]leading a church[/i], no matter how smooth-talking they are, how complete their doctrine, how first rate their education or business skills, or how good their camoflage. The Holy Spirit should expose them, and we should be [i]expecting[/i] them to be irreproachable, long before they get into leadership.

As I've been writing, (and editing this), I've been thinking.... Why didn't Paul just mention directly, that second marriages constitute adultery? Could it be that's because not all second marriages constitute adultery? Might he have felt that as 'chief of sinners' he could leave this to the Lord's discretion? I mean, he could have given a whole chapter to ironing out the details, in 1 Corinthians, or he could have added the kinds of second marriage that constitute adultery to some of the lists of sins of which he is so capable. Or just maybe, the words of Jesus such as 'Let the dead bury their dead' and to the woman of Samaria 'You have had five husbands', made it impossible for him to improve the message of God's love, forgiveness and healing.

Lastly, isn't it clutching at straws to quote [i]unbelievers[/i] on the matter of a second marriage constituting adultery? Aren't they merely repeating what they think you want to hear?

 2006/3/11 13:22
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Cindy,

As you mentioned, respectful and earnest conversation is always appreciated. Thank you as well!

When I read the thoughts, concerns, and the value placed on marriage, I find I'm more in agreement then not. Certainly the statistics of epidemic divorce, including the slightly higher rate within church circles, makes it clear that the institution of marriage is in crisis.

Quote:
I believe due to the growing numbers of divorced and remarrieds, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find men who fit the biblical requirements for leadership.



We might even take this a step further. I think it's becoming difficult to find people qualified for marriage. With the lower standards of our age, it is increasingly difficult to find people with the character, family background, and good old-fashioned proper examples from mom and dad to properly understand their roles as spouse and parent...in other words failure is breeding failure. As such, it's highly more likely that a woman, (or man) will marry into a dysfunctional situation...although it can be hard to detect during courtship.

For me there is a dilemma here...part of me wants to save society from moral decay, and the other part of me wants to save the individual from having to be married to the decay. (I'm certainly not talking about some yuppie couple, whose careers or lusts have taken them apart from one another, or people who simply want to leave a marriage to "find themselves.")
Quote:
...I completely understand that even though a marriage may not have divorce in it, it surely can contain MUCH sin. The Lord surely desires to heal such marriages. I do think though there's something to be said for those who "stick it out" even though they may seem to have much more right to "chuck" their spouse aside. Why do such marriages stay together? I think some do out of fear of loneliness, fear of financial security, social rejection, etc.......all WRONG reasons to be sure. But there is something........some inner knowledge with most people that divorce is wrong.



For my own part, this is really my single point of controversy on this issue. It's very difficult for me to give marriage the ultimate spiritual and moral priority over all other considerations. While it's painfully clear that we westerners live in an age of convenience and selfishness, I don't think all divorce situations can be described as "chucking a spouse." I realize my situational or circumstantial approach makes the discussion of divorce very messy and perhaps subjective. Yet, I can't escape the thought that the reality is messy, getting messier, and that perhaps we are trying to make it neater then it can be.

Perhaps this discussion is really two different ones blending together. The thread started on a simple premise...marriage status in leadership. That can be a controversial but relatively contained conversation. Honestly, I can appreciate the virtue in upholding standards for leadership...what seems legalistic to one is actually grace on behalf of others. I believe all of God's law was originally conceived in His heart as mercy...He doesn’t want His people to be liberated from bondage only to destroy themselves through sin.

However, sometimes it feels this topic broadens into whether or not divorcees and remarried people are spiritual damaged goods. It's at this juncture I polarize, because I know I was purchased from the scratch and dent sale of humanity. (I'm sure many of us feel the same way.)

Like I said, I believe we should indeed uphold standards. And I'm not interested in condescending divorced people with emotional pity...I’m interested in them having access to the same restoration and forgiveness I so freely received. For if we preach the law, then let's be sure to preach the whole law including the Promise. That’s a nice idea, but I feel some churches, perhaps through fear that things are out of control, do not uphold that particular standard. Sadly, there are some brethren in our midst who can identify with this Christ-like verse in Psalms.

I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/3/11 13:33Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: silence -God's peace

Quote:
Yes, indeed I hear the silence and as the billboards all around Kansas City right now read “The silence is killing us.”


Sorry, Tony, but you are talking about something completely different than I was (or Dorcas).

I speak about the silence that proclaims God's solution for the sin problem of the world. Do you understand it? Do you "hear" it?

Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/11 13:44Profile





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