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Discussion Forum : General Topics : A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?

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 Re:

Sister Dorcas has much to share and much to offer the Body, in many many ways ... and this I say from personally experiencing her since last year, but I would say MenFisher, that you answered this with your own words. "In my experience" .... NOT 'Thus said The Lord", from His Word.

That is the problem with the Body and why the POWER from God slowly dwindles and is blatantly being replaced with counterfeit experiences and doctrines.

Hermeneutics is thrown out. Word Studies in the original languages have been thrown out.

Does that necessarily disqualify the person from being 'used' ... no, His gifts are without repentance, but does that mean that a door has been open to further error, Yes.

The error here is to make the "manifestation" of Spirit Baptism the same as the "gift of tongues" found in 1 Corth 12, that is NOT given to all or not all are used in that gift, by GOD's choosing, not our own.

That is why, many use the verse "about the gift of tongues" to quote "Do all speak in tongues ....?" and not even to finish that verse.

Why am I stressing on this ? Because the prayer language will get us through and receiving the fullness of the Spirit and what He's sent His Body is being tossed aside by making these two manifestations one and the same.

I've been used in all but 2 of the nine gifts in 1 Corth 12 ... but that does not mean that they are "resident" gifts, that I can call up whenever I choose.
God may never use me in any but 1 from time to time, if that's His Choice.

All received "tongues" in the book of ACTS, but not all were called to or used in the "gift" of tongues in the Church.

I'm not hair-splitting here ... but because some have made them one and the same "tongues" ... THAT is why many do not seek the prayer/praise language and are forfeiting the benefits of that manifestation.

"Do all speak in tongues...." quoted in part and out of context of the whole of that chapter is partly responsible for what is part of cessationism.

I believe every experience Dorcas has had ... but to say there is but one "tongues" is to not care what the Lord went through the trouble to have Paul pin point in the Greek with his two choices for the word "another" seen on page one.

If we say the Greek on page one does not matter to us, and only our "experiences" form our doctrine, then, error is on the coat tails of such a stance.

I find much of what is written in general anymore is from "personal experience or opinion" on most every Forum I visit or look at.

Very few Expositors left. We must have both "Spirit AND Truth".

I leave this to be critiqued by whomever.

ALL His [u]Best[/u] to All.
Annie

 2006/3/11 16:33









 Re: Private prayer language

Quote:
Yes, you are being difficult :-P . Haaa.

Well, I'm not trying to be, even if I'm being trying.... :-P Haaa! :-D

Annie,

You know what I think here? I think the word 'manifestation' has entered your doctrinal language by the back door. To manifest, is to show. It is not an entity with a life of its own.

It doesn't even appear in Acts 2 by name. With reference to the tongues.... they show themselves by their presence.

Likewise in Ephesians 5, we have Paul saying 'that which makes manifest, is light'. (v13) By all means check up in the Greek.

Next thing I've noticed, is that Romans 12 doesn't mention tongues, even though the spirit if the message is very similar to 1 Cor 12.... there is the idea of the Body and of the effect of the spirit (charismata - graces) on the believer.

This conveys to me that when the word 'manifestation' is used in 1 Cor 12, is simply means a [i]showing of the Spirit's presence[/i].... and it can mean [i][b]through any gift AT ALL[/b][/i]..... not just tongues.

Probably I've said enough for this post.

Looking forward to your response.... really; I am. ;-)

 2006/3/11 16:38









 Re: Private prayer language


Dear Annie,

We've posted at the same time nearly and I didn't see yours till I'd posted mine.

At this precise moment, that's all I want to say. This IS a very intersting discussion and I know I still need to respond to your questions in an earlier post. For now though, I'm going back to p1 to re-read your exposition there, and, I'm going to get a very big cup of tea, first.

Love to you.

 2006/3/11 16:44









 Re:

I'll just try to break it down easier, because the Greek post on page one looks Jumbled, because of my choice to use the Numbered to the Strong's version.

The front door entrance of the word "manifestation" is found in ....

[u]1Co 12:7[/u] 'BUT' 1161 the "manifestation"5321 of the Spirit [u]is given to 'every man'1538[/u] to profit.

Other english versions - 1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the "showing forth" or "manifestation": of the Spirit to "our profit." Some versions say "common good".

"Manifestation" = G5321 φανερωσις phanerōsis fan-er'-o-sis From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation. Used only in 1Co. 12:7 and 2 Co. 4:2.

".... Is given to Every man to profit withal"

Verse 7 above says in the Greek "THE manifestation." Singular ... not the manifestations. (the gifts)


Then on this previous page, page 4, we went through ACTS {rightly called Acts} and saw first hand that this "manifestation" WAS indeed "given to all" and that is how the onlookers knew that those in Chpt 10 "received the Holy Spirit" BECAUSE {gar-Greek} "they spoke with tongues" ... so that was the Manifestation being manifested in the book of Acts.

You mentioned the 7 gifts of Romans 12 ... they are called the motivational gifts and they are prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhorting, sharing or giving, and leading or administrating.

They are not the manifestational gifts of 1 Corth 12.

Nor are they the resident or Ministerial gifts of Ephesians 4 and 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Here again, comparing all of these gifts to the what transpired in the Book of Acts, where all Baptized by Fire or the Holy Ghost, DID have the "manifestation" of tongues, which confirmed to the onlookers that these had been Baptized.

You said ""This conveys to me that when the word 'manifestation' is used in 1 Cor 12, is simply means a showing of the Spirit's presence.... and it can mean through any gift AT ALL..... not just tongues.""

The first part is correct according to the language there ... the tongues WAS to "show the Spirit's Presence" but the latter part is not according to the Two uses of the word "another" found in those verses in 1 Corth 12.

"Allos" was used for "another" with 7 of the gifts and "Heteros" was used for "another", Only with Faith and Tongues.

So in 1 Corth 12 we have first the manifestational gifts that God uses people in "as HE wills" {so they are not resident}... then we have the Ministerial gifts that 'are' resident and the Motivational gifts are a resident burden of the person, found in Romans 12.

Again, the only reason I'm posting so often here on this, is that by making the manifestation of the Spirit that is "given to all" ... the Same as the 'Gift' of Tongues that requires Interpretation in the congregation, we are giving the people the excuse for not seeking out the manifestation that is our prayer/praise language ... that is 'why' it is "given to all".

One is said to be "given to all" and the other (the gift of ..) is Not.


I don't know if you're back yet ... but I'll push the submit button and see what we've got so far.

This is to "profit all" if you catch my drift.

Love.
Annie

 2006/3/11 17:16









 Re: Private prayer language

Hello again, Annie,

I'm thinking hard.

It seems to me there is a discrepancy in your 'doctrine' on the point of tongues if you say not everyone will speak in tongues, (1 Cor 12:30) but, everyone who is baptised in the Spirit will have the 'manifestion' of tongues.

The more I look at what Paul has said, (in the Greek) the more I'm getting a feel for the way he's changed the words he's used to say basically the same thing, in 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12.

He's talking to people who have [u]all[/u] been baptised in the Spirit. According to you, they should all have a private worship/prayer language in tongues. Yet Paul's rhetorical question strongly implies some people did not, [i]despite[/i] their baptism in the Spirit.

The last phrase of 1 Cor 12:28 is 'various kinds of tongues'. This still doesn't tell me that [i]everyone[/i] baptised in the Spirit received [i]tongues[/i].

On reading the whole of 1 Cor 12 just now, it seems to me that Paul is saying the OPERATION of the Spirit in the believer, can be discerned as 'a gift' of ability - [u]an enabling[/u] - to do something identifiable by its consistent manifestation in the same form.

He is attributing the 'power' to do whatever - heal, discern, teach - [u]to the Spirit[/u] - the effect of the Spirit - which he also calls the [i]gracing[/i] of the Spirit on a person(ality) (charismata pl).

The NASB translates 1 Cor 12:30 'All do not [b]speak[/b] with tongues'.

It seems to me it is more difficult to insist that baptism in the Spirit is always accompanied by some form of tongue-speaking, than it is to accept that the baptism in the Spirit confers [u]power[/u] on a life, which will show itself through [u]a particular grace of the Spirit[/u] - of which tongues may be one.

This does not preclude a believer who has not received tongues, from seeking tongues. As James says, if anyone lacks, let him ask. The Lord also spoke of investing what we have, that we may gain more. I'm sure I have more gifts now than when I was first baptised in the Spirit.... (but I've only recently begun to see that it's ok to ask for more. Joshua's way ahead of me there....)

I shall continue to read round this, and also, tomorrow, I'll answer your other questions.

Thank you for your patience.... I need the time.

EDIT: In other words, the 'manifestation' of the Spirit is ANY gift.

 2006/3/11 17:20









 Re:

I posted above yours there.

Hasta Manana on this one.

Back to having eyes like cotton balls.

:-(


Love you !

 2006/3/11 17:27









 Re: Private prayer language

Quote:
Hasta Manana

? :-? Interpretation please?

Actually, I [i]can[/i] answer at least one of your earlier questions, quite easily.... It was to do with whether it was possible to be born again before Pentecost. Yes, I've been [i]taught[/i] that it was not.

But, as a midwife, I thought a great deal about the picture language in the concept of 'new birth', compared with real birth in the natural.

It has to be said, then, that although the Holy Spirit came over the OT prophets right up to John the Baptist, and 'filled' them for the purpose that the filling was given - usually prophecy, but sometimes visions, dreams, interpretations, healing, resurrection from the dead - the focus ahead to Christ, suggests that His work was (going to be) phenomenal - the establishment of a New Covenant.

Heb 10:19
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, (NASB)

This is very similar to birth. I can see in my spirit what I want to say, but I'm not sure it will sound brilliant on the page.... As a baby is being born, out of the flesh, it is entering into the Spirit; only then, can the Spirit enter into it and that's what makes the difference. If it starts to breathe, it is considered 'alive'. In the Spirit, this would be 'new birth'.

A baby who is born physically, but does not breathe, is not considered ever to have been alive. Harsh but true. Even if all the signs of life were present in the womb.

So, what I'm trying to say is, the 'thought' that 'new birth' was not [i]possible[/i] till Pentecost, has HUGE resonance with natural birth.

There is also the 'out of darkness into His marvellous light' aspect of new birth which cannot be ignored for its exactness with the natural.

I'm not going to elaborate more on that picture, but there is one other point regarding what a person receives at the moment they believe.

(Of course there are exceptions, but) I believe strongly that if you don't tell a person about the baptism in the Spirit, they are not seeking God for it. If you don't tell them about new birth, they are not seeking God for it. Even though these two may be inextricably linked, a person will receive what they can from the WORD which was/is preached to them.

It's not that their faith is lacking, necessarily, if they don't receive the whole nine yards. It may be that no-one mentioned the 8th and 9th yard, so they only looked to God for the first 7. I'm not meaning to be facetious AT ALL, but, when I think of how much time can be given to expounding just one point, during a sermon, it's not surprising if basic truths are obscured to the hearer.

Possibly there is more which could be said on all these angles, but that's all that's coming to me right now.

God bless your night, dear sister.

 2006/3/11 17:57
somar79126
Member



Joined: 2004/12/31
Posts: 11
Baguio City, Philippines

 Re:

Hi,

Hopefully you all don't mind me coming in between your conversations here, but I just wanted to share my testimony on how I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in hopes it can be of any help to FreedbyJC.

This is how....I was about 5 months old in Him at the time and as some had said my 'cloud nine' season. I soaked up everything I read in HIS (I still do) Word, but knew scant knowledge of what the baptism of the Holy Ghost was. I was out with my mentor/friend plowing the roads one evening. My friend spoke a little about on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and having a prayer language. I didn't know what he was talking about when he mentioned prayer language so I asked him, "What prayer language?" And out of nowhere, instead explaining to me what it was, he spoke that the language the Lord gave him for a second or two! I was taken aback by what I saw and heard. I told him, "I want that and how do I get it?" He just told me to pray and asked to be baptised with the Holy Spirit and ask for a prayer language. That night in bed I asked the Lord to baptize me and asked. Nothing happened then and there. No burst of unknown language..nothing, but I believe the Lord baptized me. After that my times of prayer, my mouth would start to utter something, but I always stopped myself cause I didn't know what was happening. I always prayed internally or with my mind than with my mouth thus my reason to stop and close my mouth during my times of prayer.
A few months past and at this time I was already living with my foster parents who took me in (both Christians). I had asked them about laying their hands on me to receive a prayer language through them. At my request, they layed their hands on me and sought the Lord and my Dad said that I didn't need to be prayed over since the Lord told him I already had it. I said, "I did? Really?" So what they did was just pray in their prayer languages and as they did that that same utterance started to happen again with my mouth, only this time I didn't held back. Afterwards, I told them that's been happening to me after I had asked to be baptized with the Holy Spirit from the Lord Himself. With all that said, I'm very thankful that it was the Lord who did it without the laying of hands. Note: I don't have anything with laying on hands from believers. So, FreedbyJC, in short, I had no knowledge I was baptized yet I believed when I asked Him.


_________________
Andrew Ramos

 2006/3/11 20:45Profile









 Re:

somar, that is a wonderful testimony you have. Praise God.
I'm glad you came back to share it. It truly blessed me.

I'm also glad that you are one more proof that the "laying on of hands" is not necessary to receive the Baptism. That one can be alone in their room and the Lord is more than anxious to give out His fullness of His Spirit to those who simply ask.
Your testimony is a blessing and that you also had wonderful foster parents. God has smiled on you indeed. :-)

I was saved/born-again for three years before I asked for and received the Baptism with the evidence of tongues. But I only got one word in another language that night, but like you, gradually over the days, I let the Lord take my fear away and enjoyed what He is able to do with setting us free to pray and worship in spirit.

I had been taught that it wasn't necessary for today and also others had put a fear in me that I could get a "false tongue", so I feared for those three years after I got saved, and didn't seek at all.
But then I finally went to a good Church and the Lord gave me Luke 11:11-13 and even though I was still somewhat afraid that I wouldn't get the "real McCoy", I asked the Elder to pray with me.

For the three years before I received the Baptism, the Lord would still give me discernment and dreams and things like that, but nothing compared to what happened after the Baptism and the prayer language. Things were able to really take off from there.

I pray for all His children to have this prayer language. To seek the Baptism, to be given the power from on High to be better witnesses and to be open to the gifts ... so we can go back to the acts of the first church and be powerful and mighty in the land.

I know, that the day after the Baptism, I devoured the Word with more force than ever and couldn't get enough of it and it also had more power. Also my boldness increased and also JOY.
God knew I needed joy.

But since I was early saved, I read the book of Acts with complete confidence that those acts were just part of the normal Christian Life. Maybe that is why things began right away, even before the Baptism.

I have a burden that this is what we need to make it through the days ahead and to see any sort of personal revival in our own lives.

To me, walking in Pentecost, is a daily experience and reality. Not something "more".
The gifts are operating as "He wills" and His Voice is clear. What more can I ask of Him, but that He just fulfill His Word in me and protect me from all of the deceptions out there.

He knows our hearts and won't withhold any good thing from us. He wants us to be as He was in this world and doing the same works that He did, plus more He said.

Why do we limit Him so brother ? Do you think as I do, it is because the devil hates this teaching and of course he wouldn't want us having the dunamis {miraculous} power, so he twisted this teaching more than most ?


Well, again I thank you somar for sharing this.

Lord Bless you !

 2006/3/11 21:17









 Re:

Seester Dorcas, No habla Espanol ?

Seester, I know for certain that I was very much Born-Again three years prior to the baptizō. Si !

Has nothing to do with my profession back then - just one day I was dead in my trespasses and the next, I was alive unto Christ and totally transformed. HE metamorphosed me.

Hasta Mañana hermana means, see you tomorrow Seester. Te amo mucho, translates to [u]I Love you lots[/u]. :-)

 2006/3/11 21:29





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