During.. and.. after the garden of Eden,In the state of sin and apart from God. Does man have a will????.of in his own...and if so, is it free to do good or bad??? This has been on my mind in a heavy way.

Thank you js,now I got the motor running,sort of speak.So man had free will in the garden.... after eating the bad tree,now the phrase their eye's opened,what does that mean?,is it the soul??, carnal knowledge mind??, or self-centered-ness apart from God??,or is it guilt knowing of wrong doing?????.I know this is a deep subject, I thank you for any help!

I think this is a helpful passage, too:

(KJV) Ephesians 2
1 And you [u]hath he quickened[/u], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past [u]ye[/u] walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the child[u]ren[/u] of disobedience:
3 Among whom also [u]we all had our[/u] conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, [b]fulfilling the [u]desires[/u] of [u]the flesh[/u] and of [u]the mind[/u][/b]; and were by nature the children [u]of wrath[/u], even as others.

I've kept the KJV because I'm familiar with it and it speaks clearly to me.

The 'hath he quickened' I underlined; I do realise is not in the original (when it's in brackets) but, it brings up the matter of [b]GOD'S WILL[/b], which was able to come to our rescue. This is a useful backdrop to considering our own will, which is no less powerful, if we direct it aright.

That we can direct it, is clear from 1 Cor 14:32
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (NKJV)

In other words, our will is subject to our mind - our mental choice and our deepest heart choice.

This is borne out by Mark's account of Jesus's arrival in the land of the Gadarenes:

(NKJV) Mark 5
1 Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when He had come out of the boat, [b]immediately there met Him[/b] out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 who had [his] dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains,
4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.
6 [b]When he saw Jesus [u]from afar, [i]he ran[/i][/u] and worshipped Him[/b].

Returning to the verses above from Ephesians 2, I think 'children of wrath' refers to our attracting God's wrath for our bad behaviour. Later in the chapter, the 'wall of partition' was the Mosaic law, which separated the Hebrews from the Gentiles, the Law having been an attempt to provide a way for part of mankind to avoid God's wrath (by keeping His rules).


Romans 3:20(b)'..by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.' This (trying to keep the Law) was a matter of 'will', just as 1 Timothy 1:9 says the Law is for [u]the lawless[/u]...... that is, those who do not (willingly) bring their will under the authority of God's will.

I find it interesting to note the spiritual point Paul makes in Eph 2:2. As with Legion, even the spirit of disobedience is subject to the will of person.

What do you think of this analysis?

Free will , to do good or bad?

If it is not possible for any person to obey God after Adam's sin them someone please tell tell me how these people obeyed even before Christ was born

1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father.

2 Chronicles 14:2 And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God:

2 Chronicles 24:2 And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Joshua 22:2 And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:

Haggai 1:12 Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.

Did Adam or his descendants lose the ability to obey God after Adam's sin?

No!! The Bible tells the story of many people, some who walked with God and did what was pleasing in His sight and others who rebelled against God and did evil in His sight. It would be impossible to rebel or obey without the freedom to do so.

Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

Isaiah 1:19-20 "If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land: but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it." KJV

These passages prove that all of Adam's offspring still had the ability to obey or refuse God.

What about Enoch and others who really followed Gods commands? Again, it would not be possible to obey God if they did not have this ability.

free cd:
in the old testament it talks alot about the spirit of the lord being on people. and I believe(as i would guess you do) that I will see David, Enoch, and the rest of the old testament christians in heaven, because of there faith in the messiah to come. my personal belief is that those pre-0AD Jews(Christians) are the same, basically(lived by faith not works, and were born again) as the post-0AD Christians(Jews) except as one was putting there faith in the messiah to come the other puts there faith in the messiah that has come. if this is blaspheming or heresy or the like, someone stop me and delete this post. again, i'm a new christian so this is not from a near comprehensive comprehension of the bible; just from what i've seen.

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matt

The reason that I asked,some believe,after eating of the tree,man has lost his will,or that it is no longer free,that is why I want to know what does it mean when their(( eYe's opened up??in the Garden.?))

where this started i watched a.w pink.talk about the will of man,and how it is not free.that why i want know the meaning of (((There eye's opened up))???? because in the act of being opened they saw there naked -ness and became ashamed.to me this sounds like Guilt the act of knowing of wrong doing,2 fold?? what state was adam in before the eye's where opened? Is this the discovery of self -apart from God will??