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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Debating with Witnesses

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solmartin
Member



Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 5


 Debating with Witnesses

My sister has been attending the Jehovah's Witness churches for a few years since Christian churches rejected her and made her unwelcome.

She wants me to talk to a witness so I can understand why she is going there, but I don't want to until I have myself totally on firm ground Biblically.

I am not the most well-versed in scripture, but I am trying. I need some help in this area: I am looking for verses in the Bible that can be used in conversation with a witness to prove Christianity over the slightly altered Witnesses.

I hope that makes sense. Thank you, and God bless,

Sol


_________________
Solomon

 2006/3/2 23:03Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Debating with Witnesses

Many JW's are pretty well versed in Scripture and the Watchtower has many publications that script their replies to your objections to their beliefs. They are 'programmed' in a sense and they can be tough nuts to crack.

A JW will tell you that they can't be assured of eternal bliss and all the places in heaven are already taken. Remind them that that doesn't sound much like Good News to you. Let them know the good news, that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ completed the work of salvation on a cross at Calvary.

The JW will have to counter with his/her good works. Put your Savior down against their savior to see which one has the perfect Savior. The JW's will use the name "Jesus Christ" as their Savior because they can't deny that something happened at Calvary but, the perfect work of Jesus Christ there is impugned by their counterfeit.

The Bible speaks of His work as a substitutionary sacrifice (Isaiah 53:5,6) on our behalf, and any law of substitution states that when a substitute comes into play, the original player must leave the field and have no more active involvement. When it comes to our salvation we have to get off the field, it is His perfect work alone, if we must add to it, it is no longer perfect.

Also, here is a link to an excellent article that will help you in discussing the deity of Christ with them...

[url=http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5569]Deity of Christ[/url]


In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/3/3 8:56Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Debating with Witnesses

The JW system is not a 'slightly altered' but is a 'major revision' of orthodox Christian faith. They hold that their system is the 'rediscovered' and authentic version of Christianity and much of their labour goes to proving that everyone else is wrong. The difficulty in countering their arguments is that they do have carefully scripted answers to almost any specific criticism of their system. Their theology is just about 'water-tight' for those on the 'inside'.

I usually ask them who they are... 'are you Jehovah's Witnesses?' when they agree I simply say 'I am a Jesus Witness, would you like to know the difference?' I then point out that... “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8 KJVS)...Jesus said quite specifically that when men and women receive the Holy Spirit they become '"Jesus' Witnesses".

The term "Jehovah's Witnesses' comes from God's word to the people of Israel.Is. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Is. 43:12 I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God.
Is. 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any. These references are from the ASV which used the name Jehovah whereas the KJV and most other version hide the proper name of God by using the word 'LORD' in upper case letters. We only have the word 'Jehovah' 3 times in our KJV (Ex 6:3; Psa 83:18; Is 12:2; 26:4) whereas the name is actually used almost 7000 times in the Old Testament.

So the ancient people of Israel were the 'original and authentic' Jehovah's Witnesses. The first of the KJV references above is a real key here. Read it in its context and you will see that "Jehovah" was the name by which God introduced Himself to the nation of Israel. It is the unique 'covenant' name and from the time of Sinai the people were the 'people of Jehovah'. Their Sinai laws were given, partly, to mark our a way of life in which they would be known as 'Jehovah's People'. They broke their covenant and, as a nation, failed to be 'Jehovah's Witnesses'.

Christ Himself fulfilled all the expectations of being Jehovah's Witness. Israel were the original "Jehovah's Witnesses" but Christ was the last "Jehovah's Witness". Since that time all who have claimed to be "Jehovah's Witnesses" have been frauds. It is no accident that the proper name "Jehovah" never appeared in any of the New Testament documents. Modern JW's will tell you that it was once there but has been removed; there is absolutely no evidence for this. They have invented this piece of history to support their views.

If you get into a discussion with well-trained JW's they will contest all the above, but if your sister is still only on the edges she might be willing to listen to the above evidence.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/3/3 10:01Profile









 Re: Debating with Witnesses

solmartin... I would highly recommend you [b]not[/b] speak to a JW at all right now. You need to get grounded in the Word for the right reasons, not because you want to win an argument. And should only talk to a JW for the right reason... to win him to Christ.

The Bible is clear about this:

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, [b]mark[/b] them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and [b]avoid[/b] them.

Notice is doesnt say debate them. Now, I have witnessed to JW's before, but they showed up at my house. You show up at my house you're fair game. But I have never sought them out. I avoid them unless they are on my turf. Does that make sense?

I understand the history and the doctrines of JW's pretty well, and sometimes I still get stumped. They are trained in how to twist and confuse and debate. Most Christians have no business trying to engage them in conversation about scriptures.

Scripture also tells us:

2Jo 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.

When a JW shows up at my house (which they havent in a long long time... I think I am black-listed!) I dont invite them in. We talk on the front deck. And I do not tell them goodbye, or God Bless or anything like that. I dont even tell them "I'll see ya later!" ... cuz I know I wont! lol

As for your sister, you should maintain a relationship with her, and pray for her... and discuss your faith with her. There is nothing wrong with that. If you're not good at discussing doctrine, get her some books to read on the JW's.

But be very cautious about all of this because if she wants you to meet with another JW to explain why she is there... then my friend, you are on their radar and you have been discussed. They are after your soul.

No, let me rephrase that: Satan is after your soul.

Your relationship with God is more important than your relationship with your sister:

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

To me, this means you need to protect your relationship with God, and your spiritual condition [b]first[/b] ...your sister comes second. If trying to win her puts you in a dangerous position spiritually... well, God hasnt called you to do that.

Krispy

 2006/3/3 13:10
nacl
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 61
Babylon

 Re:

Two great resources for JW information http://www.bible.ca/jw.htm and http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/ (down near the bottom of the page is a section on Cults). You may find Walter Martin's audio messages on Blue Letter Bible to be foundational.


I used to have a Witness come to my job to try to set up days to "talk" about the Bible. I used to meet with her and one of her partners when we had a chance. My goal was to win them to Christ by showing them the contradictions in their doctrine.

As the other posts have said, you do have to be firmly grounded in the Bible, because Witnesses carry along their "Reasoning from the Scriptures" booklet, so even if they aren't prepared for some of the things we bring up, that book has "scripted" responses to just about anything that you can think of. (Thanks, Krispy!)

So your motives have to be pure, which I'm sure that they are, and your understanding of God's word has to be strong. Also, when you come in contact with a JW, you have to be "prayed up" as we say. The Devil will be using them to try to sift you as wheat. In order for your words, even straight scripture, to penetrate, you need the Holy Spirit to empower your speaking, They are brainwashed and often deaf to anything they didn't learn at the Kingdom Hall.

I could talk for a long time about Jehovah's Witnesses. I won't say that I'm a cult expert, or even a Bible expert, but I have had many run-ins with Witnesses and have done plenty of studying in order to show myself approved armed and ready to bring them to the truth that is in the true Christ. If you want to talk, feel free to email me. I'd be happy to help you get ready to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

I'm praying for you and your sister now. May the Lord use to to glorify Him!

Your brother,
D.


_________________
D. Bryant

 2006/3/3 13:59Profile
nacl
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 61
Babylon

 Re:

Let me make an addendum.

When speaking with a Jehovah's Witness, the King James is superior to the New International or New American Standard versions. Whether you like the KJV or not, you will find that the NIV and NASB actually are closer translations to the Witnesses' own New World Translation.

That means that there are some points that you [u]cannot[/u] make with the NIV or NASB that you can successfully make with the KJV. One vital example is 1 Timoth 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." The NIV and NASB do not use the word God to describe Jesus Christ in this verse.

Check out http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html


_________________
D. Bryant

 2006/3/3 14:21Profile
solmartin
Member



Joined: 2005/7/18
Posts: 5


 Re:

krispy and nacl:

thank you for your help. I do want to say here what I have told my sister, that I will not speak to them until I actually know the Bible. I feel if I went now, I would be not ready spiritually, and they could really influence me - so I am staying away.

I will research those links and look through the Bible more.

Thanks again,
Sol


_________________
Solomon

 2006/3/3 17:30Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: the Person of Christ

Solmartin, I think the posters so far have given you some pretty solid advice. I agree with Krispy also about waiting untill you are better grounded, as you have also said.

I wanted to mention also that a wonderfull study is a comparison of the varied attributes and names of God, primarily found in the Old Testament, that are also applied to the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps more than any other quality, the attribute of Holy is applied to God in the Old Testament. We can see that this same thing is applied to His Christ.

For instance:

Quote:
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.



compare with...

Quote:
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;



Our great God is also called Savior, as in Isaiah 43..


Quote:
For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.



Quote:
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.



and compare in Titus with..

Quote:
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;



Here's one that ties several together in Is 54

Quote:
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.



Maker(John 1:3)
Husband(2 Cor 11:2)
Lord(numerous)
Holy One(Acts 3:14)
Redeemer(Luke 1:68 and Luke 24:21 and redemption in general)
God(1John 5:20)

Praise God there is sooo much more to this study also.

The truth of the Diety of Jesus Christ is so wonderfull and we do well to take it into our spirits and rejoice in it. It is truely glorious(John 1:14).

I do not believe through my own experience with JW's that debating is fruifull or even really what is at issue. I have made grievous errors in dealing with JW's in the past with the mind to prove something. And I regret that.

Also, InThelIght, I loved this statement

Quote:
When it comes to our salvation we have to get off the field, it is His perfect work alone, if we must add to it, it is no longer perfect.



It is that word 'add' that makes the difference doesn't it?

Philologos,

Quote:
The JW system is not a 'slightly altered' but is a 'major revision' of orthodox Christian faith.



Right on there. You made some good points also about thier having a prepared response. I have been noticing that lately. There are plenty of JW's here in Philadlephia and they're always busy unfortunately :-(

Take care everyone.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/3/3 20:33Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

The Jw stand on two legs with their false teachings,One leg they say their is one God. the other Leg they say jesus is a lesser god . they try to break apart trinty,in doing so they are believeing in more than one God.there for their house is divide and can not stand on one leg of truth./ you must have a firm grasp of who the Lord is! and the Trinty,or God Head.they will pick it apart by twisting scripture and using (their interpretion of hebrew and greek.)their is the key word 2peter1:20[u]Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretion.[/u]

 2006/3/3 21:09Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

A good verse for JW:

1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Remember Krisp, we will see them, but it will be across the great gulf. I used to be uncomfortable telling unbelievers, 'see you later.' But then I rememeber that I will see them at the judgment. I just pray that we warn them enough that we won't have their blood on our hands.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/3/3 21:22Profile





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