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letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Jesuits

I have started into many of the books recommended by Leonard Ravenhill, and stumbled upon this statement which surprised me:

‘Now Satan having thus intelligence, lets him alone to act his part. He sure cannot be at a loss himself, when his scholars, the Jesuits I mean, have such agility of mind, to wreath and cast themselves into any form becoming the persons they would seduce.’

From ‘The Christian in Complete Armour’ by William Gurnall, p. 76

This caught my interest so I looked for quotes about Jesuits by other giants of the faith. Wesley wrote of the Jesuits quite a few times in his letters and in his journals:

‘But the Church of Rome has sent out preachers among us, such as Thomas Heath, a Jesuit;...And what do you infer from hence? that my brother, who was thought a student of Christ Church in Oxford, was really a Jesuit... Even to hint at such absurdities as these is an insult on common sense.’

John Wesley’s letter to George L. Fleury, May 18, 1771

Also, I found that Spurgeon spoke of Jesuits quite a few times in his publication, 'The Sword and the Trowel.'

I have also read a letter by Ravenhill where he described a Jesuit being converted in a revival.

It just seems as if many Christians today either would tend to deny the work of Jesuits and their goals, or at least tend to downplay the reality of Jesuits working to promote Roman power. Example: Ian Paisley is looked upon by many as extreme by being an outspoken enemy of the Jesuits and what they stand for. But I don't see how Paisley's view on this matter is extreme when you have a 17th century Puritan writer calling Jesuits the scholars of Satan.

Just wondering what you guys think about the topic.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/2/18 17:15Profile









 Re: Jesuits

The Jesuit conspiracy has always been interesting to me. They even teach of the Jesuits in many college history calsses today. I took two history classes in college that brought up the Jesuits. I do believe they are working to bring the world, once again, under the thumb of the vatican. I also believe they are primarily responsible for the attack on the word of God. The KJV that is. They brought out their corrupt texts that came straight from the catholic church and started to make bibles out of them in the 1800's. That's why we have so many bibles today. When for 200 years the Authorized Version was blessed by God and used by the Philadelphian church. Their even in our seminarys, teaching our future mininsters their false doctrines.

 2006/2/19 1:02
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re: Jesuits

In the history books that they use in the highschools that I am student teaching at, list the 3 main objectives of the Jesuits:
1. set up schools
2. to convert non-Christians to Catholicism.
3. Prevent Protestantism from spreading
i bet their goals are still the same today.


_________________
andy

 2006/2/19 20:13Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

It is really ironic to me that I am, apparently, the only person interested in defending Catholics on this entire forum--since I am not a Catholic and never have been one and have no intentions of being one.

I really do like sermonindex and many of the forums and ideas and encouragement, but I am increasingly disturbed by the Catholic-bashing and the spiritual arrogance it shows. I have never met a protestant-bashing Catholic, but I meet Catholic-bashing Protestants all over the place. Now, before you jump to arms and quote me something from some 17th century scholar, let me point out that I am talking about your run-of-the-mill everyday modern Catholic. I realize that the Jesuits probably have some shady history the Catholic church was responsible for the Crusades, etc, etc; but the Catholic Church does so much good and has so many very sincere Jesus-loving Christians in it these days. I just don't understand why protestants are so arrogant (I am protestant myself) and unable or unwilling to love their Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. I think I've had far more experience with hypocritical Protestants than with hypocritical Catholics.

When I was in college in the Bible Belt, all the girls would go bar-hopping all night long on Saturday night and then get up and go to Second Baptist church in the morning. When I was in Africa, it was a well-known Protestant denomination that was mixing witchcraft and Christianity, not the Catholics. When we worked with Vienamese refugees, it was the Catholics that were willing to help them in practical ways--the protestants just talked.

Now, I don't agree with all of their doctrine, but I don't agree with every other denomination's doctrine either. What I DO know is that they believe in the basics of the Apostle's Creed which is what we all believe.

I think that many of us will be amazed and humbled at all the Catholics we find in heaven and realize that God does not have a "No Catholics Allowed" sign at the pearly gates.

Phebe


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Phebe

 2006/2/19 21:31Profile









 Re: To Phebebird

I think you may have taken my post the wrong way. I was not bashing the people who are catholic but the system as a whole. We can't forget what history teaches us about this system of heiarchy. It is wretched and corrupt and it places their people in bondage of which many are never able to be freed.

Actually, I have family that are catholic. Before I was saved I thought about converting to catholocism because, like you said, there was so much hypocricy in our protestant churches. My uncle actually, who is catholic, told me not to convert to catholocism, he told me it would be a mistake.

The people are usually very good people. But you have to remember, they have a works based salvation formula. I do think there will be catholics in heaven, but I believe there will be few. But for that matter there will be alot less protestants in heaven than we think also. Many are decieved this day and age. I sat in church for twenty seven years of my life in a SBC. Warmed the pew every sunday. I was convinced I was on my way to heaven because I said a little prayer and was baptised. Then God revealed to me the truth and I was soundly saved.

 2006/2/19 21:52
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 The Heart of the Matter...

Hi phebebird...

I understand what you are saying. I live in an area that is definitely in the "Bible belt." Most businesses in my town do not open on Sunday -- and even many restaurants are closed on Sunday. And of the restaurants that are open, many do not open until noon (after most Church meetings finish). From 10am to noon, this town looks like a ghost-town. And most of the churches in the area are catholic.

When I first became a believer (and even [u]before[/u] I became a believer), I had alot of preconvinced ideas about catholicism. Much of this came from having read those [i]Alberto[/i] comics from [i]Chick Publications[/i] (which I later learned were not true). But as time went on, and as I grew in the Lord, I learned that most catholics living here do not consider themselves "catholics." They just state that they attend a Catholic Church. They are mostly unaware of the origins of the Roman Catholic Church, or the errancy of the doctrine of the Church. Many of them do not even know what a "jesuit" is.

I believe that this is a deciding factor to consider. Do people merely consider themselves "Catholics," "Baptists," or "Methodists?" Or do they consider themselves followers of Christ?

Do I believe that there are true Christians that attend Catholic Churches? Yes. God is able to reach into the Catholic Church (which I consider to be just as errant as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses) and reach the heart of a person that diligently seeks Christ. As that person continues to seek the Lord, as they fellowship with Christ, and as they hunger for the Word and then read it, they will eventually stop practicing the customs and then leave the Roman Catholic Church.

It is interesting to note that many Catholics in this town seem to have a reverence for spiritual matters -- much more than some protestants (or everyday people on the east coast where I was raised). Like you say, there is alot of hypocrisy in many protestant churches. I know guys in Bible School that can lift their hands, speak in tongues, and pray for the sick -- but they curse like sailors (and not just explicitives -- their mouths are often completely dirty!). I know a few of the most "spiritual" guys in a local church that recently admitted to me that he doesn't even know God at all. But somehow, he got caught into the popular clique at the Church. The pastors brags about him from the pulpit, and he does alot of things for God -- but he doesn't even know Him!

We should be careful about passing final judgment on people. Yes, as believers, we can judge all matters of action or sinfulness. But only God can know the heart. And I have learned that most people that often claim to have a "gift of discernment" are really just "suspicious" -- and they are not really hearing from the Lord. Why would God tell you that someone is "not really saved" if they will not play a part in reaching them for the Lord? And why would God "warn" you about someone if you are supposed to not have your trust or faith in man anyway? If we were to go under the same scrutiny that people are so eager to pass on people that currently attend a catholic church -- we might find that someone on this message board is willing to pass us off as "heretics" just as quickly.

[i]"What -- you read the 'NIV?!?"
"What -- you believe in 'tongues?!?"
"What -- you believe in the 'Rapture?!?"
"What -- you attend a "home church?!?"
"What -- you watch football games?!?"
"What -- you voted for a Republican?!?"
"What -- you own a credit card?!?"
"What -- you listen to what music?!?"
"What -- you believe in eternal security?!?"[/i]

These matters can be judged both ways -- for and against. Sadly, someone somewhere will judge you in even the most ridiculous matters. Some believers are willing to dismiss your "faith" by something just as silly. God help us to put our eyes off of the temporary, meaningless things of this life -- and put our eyes on Him.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2006/2/19 23:23Profile
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re: The Heart of the Matter...

Thank you, Chris. So well put!


_________________
Phebe

 2006/2/20 1:33Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
...comics from Chick Publications (which I later learned were not true).



:-o They're not?


(Just kiddin' Chris!) :-D


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/2/20 2:15Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

phebebird wrote:
I really do like sermonindex and many of the forums and ideas and encouragement, but I am increasingly disturbed by the Catholic-bashing and the spiritual arrogance it shows. I have never met a protestant-bashing Catholic, but I meet Catholic-bashing Protestants all over the place.


Catholics bash protestants through accusations of ignorance. It's more a matter of looking down on them as Elizabethan Englishmen looked down on "uncivilised natives".
Quote:

I just don't understand why protestants are so arrogant (I am protestant myself) and unable or unwilling to love their Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. I think I've had far more experience with hypocritical Protestants than with hypocritical Catholics.


Very few Protestants these days are true [b]Protest[/b]ants, but are more [b]Comply[/b]-ants. The root word of Protestant is the word 'protest', because the Protestant Reformers actively objected to "Papal Christianity". Notice I didn't say "Roman Catholicism", because it was more a matter of declaring the "corruption of the hierarchy" to be their enemy than the people who pledge allegiance to the system.

I would consider myself to be "anti-Catholic" in the sense that I hold a more protestant view of a Church of Rome, with it's Vicar of Christ and Sacraments, but I love Catholics as much as I love Buddhists, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Evolutionists, etc. Their system lead men to hell. That is the reality of it. However, their are many who belong to the system, and yet have a faith in Christ. But don't be deceived, people like Madame Jeanne Guyon, Bishop Fenelon, Thomas A'Kempis are more the exception than the rule. Many of them suffered under persecution alongside their Protestant counterparts, but note that their persecutor was the Holy See (Pope).

By the way, may I ask if you believe in Baptism by immersion (ie, believers baptism) while rejecting the notion of infant baptism? If that is the case, then don't call yourself a Protestant. Luther would have called you a fanatic, Zwingle would have drowned you, and Calvin would have burned you if you didn't leave town when he ordered you to.
Quote:

I think that many of us will be amazed and humbled at all the Catholics we find in heaven and realize that God does not have a "No Catholics Allowed" sign at the pearly gates.


The issue isn't whether there will be Catholics in God's remnant, but how far away from the truth is the organisation. Art Katz mentioned that he believed that the Sept 11 2001 bombings were a sign from God about the failure of "system". Systems are necessary in government (both church and secular), however system and corruption tends to go hand in hand. to quote Oswald Chambers -
Quote:

Whenever a religious community begins to get organised it ceases to ?“?draw [its] breath in the fear of the Lord?”?; the old way of talking is kept up, but the life is not there, and men who used to be keen on proclaiming the Gospel are keen now only on the success of the organisation.


You've got to admit, that most Catholic follow this line. Chris has also mentioned that most Catholics don't even know who the Jesuits are. Allow me the following question, how many here know who Luis De Alcazar, Francisco Ribera, Manuel de Lacunza, Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby, Kenneth Hagee, and Tim LaHaye are and what they have in common? Most of us know the the last one, perhaps the last two, even three, but few would know the rest, and yet the story of pretribulationism leads back this far and apparently know further. Oh, by the way, the first three were Jesuits. If you believe in a pre-trib rapture, then surprise surprise, you've been influenced by the Jesuits possibly before you even knew of their existence. Am I criticising pre-trib, no (not now at least:-P), I'm simply trying to illustrate something. Theses Catholics may not know who the Jesuits are, but they are under their influence, if they are a part of the Church of Rome. The question isn't whether they know about the Jesuits, but whether or not they they believe in the infallibility of the Pope, because if Jesuits could cause the majority of "Protestant/Evangelical/Pentecostals" in believing in a pre-trib rapture, then how much more could they persuade a Catholic "label-wearer" that another inquisition is necessary?

Also ask the question why so few know their church history anymore, because all this has happened before.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/2/20 4:53Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: The Heart of the Matter...

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Much of this came from having read those [i]Alberto[/i] comics from [i]Chick Publications[/i] (which I later learned were not true).


Has it been categorically proven false? Consider the nature of the accusations and the fact that Riviera died a mysterious death and that smear tactics are consistant with his story and any refutation must be considered with a parallel scepticism as his actual stories.
Quote:

Do I believe that there are true Christians that attend Catholic Churches? Yes. God is able to reach into the Catholic Church (which I consider to be just as errant as the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses) and reach the heart of a person that diligently seeks Christ.



I once heard someone say, "What about Catholics who turn to Christ in repentance?" To which came the reply, "Their called ex-Cathloics." I once believed that Catholicism and Christianity were compatible due to a priest in training that I met (funnily enough, he was training to be a Jesuit) who had such incredible vibrance, and spoke of God constantly with such obivous intimate affection. I was so impressed that I overlooked a comment he made to another catholic, "Man, the host [b]is God[/b]." I know loving Freemasons who are so generous that it brings shame to all around them. But they still think that all roads lead to God.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/2/20 5:03Profile





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