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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is sin?

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I read through it rather fast


Me too. I need to re-read it.

btw preachparsley, you asked for more to read. Thomas Cook's famous 'New Testament Holiness' has this passage Depravity as such is not always seen in the outer life, but it is manifest to the painful consciousness of the believer. When he would do good evil is present with him. The strong man is bound, but not being cast out, he makes desperate efforts to burst his bonds and reassert his supremacy in the household. The evil within may be kept iii subjection, but the struggle is often so severe and protracted that ever and anon the bitter cry is extorted, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

The penitent convicted of his sins seeks Divine forgiveness. The believer convicted of the depravity of his nature sighs for inward purity. The one inquires, How can the sins which are past be forgiven? the other asks. How can I be cleansed from conscious impurity? We are guilty for what we have done, but we were depraved before we were responsible for our doing. The existence of both original and actual sin has always been accepted by the Christian Church as a Scriptural doctrine.

It is because sin exists in this twofold character, as an act and as a state, that salvation assumes a twofold aspect, or is applied in two forms. For guilt there is forgiveness, for depravity there is cleansing. Forgiveness is complete forgiveness, but forgiveness can only extend to actual transgression. A mother puts upon her child a clean pinafore, and says, "Now, this must not be soiled ." But the child disobeys. The mother may forgive the child for her disobedience, but she cannot forgive the pinafore clean; she must wash it. So God may forgive the wrong we do, but He cannot forgive a depraved heart. Depravity is removed by purgation or cleansing. This is in perfect harmony with the Scriptures. Zechariah represents the fountain of Atonement as opened to meet this double need -- pardon for sin (guilt), and the purity for uncleanness (depravity). St. John's teaching is exactly the same. "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (guilt), and to cleanse us all from all unrighteousness (depravity). And with this view the hymn is in exact accord:--

Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath, and make me pure.

This twofold provision for the two forms in which sin exists runs all through the Scriptures. It was typified in the history of God's ancient Israel when they crossed the Red Sea and the Jordan in leaving Egypt and entering Canaan. We enter the holy place by regeneration, but let us not forget that, after the second veil is the tabernacle which is called the "Holy of Holies" (Heb.ix. 3).

My remedy would be expressed differently to Cook but we share the diagnosis!


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 18:03Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

He did go into some scientific stuff talking about how he felt 'sin' was passed on physically. From what I understood of him is that he was saying that when a child is born he/she has 'sin' or going to die, the body will physically decay, and has a propensity to sin. Then when the child gets to the age that he/she can make a moral decision will inevitably commit 'sins' at this time.

I may have been reading other theories into it but that is what I remember of it.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/2 18:42Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

The sin of the world is every sin from Adam to the last sin committed at the end of the 1000 years and all wrong against God inbetween.

This is what Christ did on the Cross, He took all sin upon Himself and His sacrifice made all sin, past, present, and future to disappear from the Eyes and Heart of God to those that would believe in Jesus Christ as the only begotten of the Father. Jesus is continually putting the propitiation of His Credentials of His Cross and sacrifice for the sin of the world, that it is the daily office of Christ to take away our sin, by presenting to the Father the memorials of his death. Christ takes away from all believers the guilt and punishment of their sins, the filth and pollution of them, the power and dominion that is in them: Sin permeates our Members (Rom. 7:23). Sin makes law ineffective (Rom. 8:3). When Law came, Law made sin effective and visible. Without the Law there is no sin. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the written law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: There is no excuse for sin, even those without the written Law make the Law viable and true in themselves. "Sin"



Our personal sins are separate, but from, the sin that Christ put death to on the Cross. The working out of our own salvation with fear and trembling is our own works of repentance of our individual sins that are revealed to us by the Holy Spirit because of the separation imparted by our sins and works of repentance bring us by revelation to the mind of Christ, thus fellowship with the Father once again. Thus our forgiveness in confession of sin by agreeing with God that in the revealing by the Holy Spirit we must repent and become the son's of God of whom we truly are by the Christ in us whose Mind is now ours.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/2 18:55Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: The Sin of the World

Christinyou
Your view has some serious implications.

Quote:
The sin of the world is every sin from Adam to the last sin committed at the end of the 1000 years and all wrong against God inbetween.

Our personal sins are separate, but from, the sin that Christ put death to on the Cross.

I think you are saying that our personal sins are not part of the 'sin of the world'? This is a view that I have never heard previously. You seem to be saying that God's distinguishes between the world's sin and the Christian's sin.

Quote:
Jesus is continually putting the propitiation of His Credentials of His Cross and sacrifice for the sin of the world, that it is the daily office of Christ to take away our sin, by presenting to the Father the memorials of his death.

This is only a hair's breadth from the Catholic notion of a sacrifice that needs to be offered continually. Where do you get the idea of a 'daily office of Christ to take away our sin'?Heb. 10:10 (KJVS) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb. 10:14 (KJVS) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb. 10:18 (KJVS) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. You view of a 'daily office' is really little more than a modification of the Catholic view in the 'offering of the mass'. There is no 'daily office'. There was a 'once for all' offering which requires no repetition and no 'daily memorial'. John's first letter makes this very plain:“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
(1John 2:1-2, KJVS)The death of Christ needs no memorial. I really can't think what the phrase "the propitiation of His Credentials of His Cross and sacrifice for the sin of the world" might mean. Propitiation is the price paid. In the presence of God there stands one who 'is' the Propitiation; the price paid. All forgiveness of sin, whether of 'the world' or 'the saint' is based on exactly the same ground.1John 4:10 (KJVS) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. No memorial, nor daily office, could have any additional efficacy.

The statement of Christ being 'the propitiation' is fundamental to Christian teaching“whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;”
(Rom. 3:25, ASV) That verb 'set forth' is in the Aorist: he [u]did[/u] set forth. The Propitiation is an historical fact. Nothing that we (or God) can do will alter it in any way; it is finished. The language of I John is not intended to convey any 'memorial' or 'daily office' but is a simple way of saying our acceptance with God, then-now-always, is on the basis of a propitiatory sacrifice that was completed 'once for all'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 4:20Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Or in other words, "It is finished !"

P.S. The idea of continual propitiation is also a Seventh Day Adventist heresy.

 2006/2/3 4:46Profile









 Re: What is sin?

Jer. 2:13 "For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken ME the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water."

The real sin is a selfish heart. You are in control and God is not. The main sin is not being dependant on Him. Your heart, your selfish heart wants only one thing: you! Now many say all these wonderful things like, "oh, I want to serve the Lord! Oh, I love the Lord with all my heart! Oh, Hallelujah!" Inside there's a whole level of life that says "I love me with all my heart! I want me exalted! Hallelujah for me! I praise me!"

Here is what Paris Reidhead said about sin

"God's law is an expression of his mind, an unveiling of his purpose to insure the greatest good and happiness and blessedness of everybody."
"Sin is the opposite of this. Selfishness, an inordinate self-love. A desire for one to be at the expense of others. To have satisfaction and posessions, position without due and proper regard to the rights and position of others."

"A sinner is a person that has said, my pleasure, my satisfacion, the gratification of my appetite, the indulgence of my whims is so important that I don't care what it does to God or others."

"A sinner is a person who has committed himself to the purpose and practice of pleasing himself without due and proper regard for the interest of God and the rights of others."


 2006/2/3 6:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

freecd's "Paris Reidhead"

Quote:
"A sinner is a person who has committed himself to the purpose and practice of pleasing himself without due and proper regard for the interest of God and the rights of others."


Now we are going to have to define 'sinner'. :-) Does a 'single' sin make a man a sinner? Or is being a 'sinner' something which we are born with?

We first discussed 'Paris Reidhead's views on 'original sin' way back in August 2003! Here is the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=293&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]archive.[/url]


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/3 7:02Profile









 Sin is a crime!

Sin is living as if there's no God and it's living independently from God and depending on the world and your own ability with your mind to get from the world what you need. Instead of depending on God and depending on faith on Him, you depend on the world and on your ability to manipulate the world to get what you want. That's what sin is. Sin is the act that cuts one self off from God.

The sinner instead of getting his love from God gets it from the world. He lives off the love that the world can give him, He lives off the security that the world can give him. He scrounges and scrabbles for his salary and his insurance policy. He lives off the sense of significance that world can give him. He lives off the world that's why he is dead in his spirit and so his personality is hopelessly perverted.

Man's ego, pride, and selfishness raises up in his heart and self exalts itself above God. Pride takes over God's place in His temple. Self shows and declares himself to be God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that is already at work in the hearts of all sinful men. The sinner's self-exaltation is the ruling power of his life and the cause of all sin. Selfishness is the root, the trunk, and the branches of all the destructive evil and sin of man's rebellious state. Self-esteem, self-love, and self-seeking are the very essence and life of pride. Pride rules in the heart of man and daily worships the idol of self. A sinner is a criminal and a rebel because he can let go of his selfishness and self-serving and turn to God, but refuses to do so.

The sinner demands his own rights to such a degree that they are more important to him than all other interests, including God's. He is the king of his own realm and wants, He wants God and all other interests to bow to him. He makes himself a god and tramples underfoot the law of God and his own reason and intelligence. He becomes lawless and full of iniquity. He becomes the voluntary but real slave of lust, appetite and desire.

Do not forget that before a sin nature can exist, sin has to take place. So a sin nature is only the RESULT of sin not the CAUSE of it. True sin consists in the willful choice to live supremely for self and not for God. The sin nature is the result of this sin. We are the author of our own sin nature.

I doubt if you will agree but here it goes.

Does a 'single' sin make a man a sinner? Yes!!!

Is being a 'sinner' something which we are born with? NO!! This is unbiblical.

Every sinner has committed two evils. These are, forsaking God and building a system that tries to quench their spiritual thirst and desire.

Sin and sins.

Forsaking God is the sin the "sins" are the result of that one sin.

 2006/2/3 10:31
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Philo,

In the difference between 'sin' and 'sins', would you say that 'sin' is a dispostion, and that 'sins' are offenses?


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/3 10:42Profile









 Re: What is sin?

philologos said

Quote:
The division of opinion is often on the question of Sin or sins. Individual transgressions of 'law' may be defined as sins but what is this Sin that Paul refers to in Rom 5:12 which entered the world at the time of Adam's first sin?

Quote:
From Rom 5:12 and for most of the rest of the next couple of chapters Paul refers to sin in a very different way to anything found elsewhere in the Bible; he personifies it. Before this point in Romans he generally has in mind 'sin' as the transgression of law. He uses the language of 'measurement', reckoned etc but when he arrives at Rom 5:12 Sin has become an entity and behaves with 'personality' characteristics.

Before this thread gets too long, I just want to say what a difference it makes to see the capital (S) in this discussion, with the explanation which prompts its use. It makes much sense and is helpful both to thinking through the topic, as well as [i]trying[/i] to explain it to others....... Thank you!

 2006/2/3 11:06





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