Hi Frank,

I can't agree with you more. I was in the military about 16 years ago (Air Force) and a song used to come on which brought tears to my eyes----"I'm Proud to Be an American" by Lee Greenwood. I LOVED that song. Now, I can't stand it. As a Christian, my being American, does not matter except that the Lord caused me to be born in this place and time for HIS purposes----not so I can be "PROUD" of my earthly home and feel "blessed" above others who are suffering around the world.

I think many, when they say "I'm proud", don't really understand how that sounds coming from the mouth of a Christian........nor how it sounds proclaiming instead, they are "blessed" to be an American. When we say such things, it implies that those who are suffering elsewhere are NOT blessed---and we know through the scriptures, if one is "IN CHRIST" and suffering for the Gospel's sake, they ARE BLESSED, no matter where in the world they are!!!!

Yes, I also agree with you concerning the "wealth" and sexual sin in the church. Our focus is so much on ourselves and what we desire/deserve, how WE are blessed above and beyond, etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with wealth as long as that wealth does not "hold" you. ALL belongs to the Lord-----whether we have much or little----we need to always remember that----being both generous and wise stewards of what has been entrusted to us----financially, as well as spiritually.

Personally, I think it makes it HARD to be a Christian in our society. There is much temptation to overcome. We are like LOT---vexed by the ungodliness around us and succombing to some of it due to being "numb", desensitized, etc. Even Lot, who was counted as Righteous, was about to sin by giving his daughters over to be raped. Being around such ungodliness takes it's toll on the righteous. We need to always be on guard, not thinking ourselves "blessed" to be Americans, but knowing we are being tested here and need to rely that much more on the Lord to overcome all the temptations which are before us in this wealthy nation.......Just my two. Blessings in Him, Cindy

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Cindy

Hi Cindy
We both agree. What American Christians seem to have lost more than anything is their identity. We are Christians who happen to have been born in America or Scotland or wherever. There is no more nationalistic country in the world than Scotland. Yet, this is one of the first feelings that I lost when I came to Christ.Its not that I did not love the people from the land of my physical birth, I did and do. Its just my spiritual birth is so much more important to me than where I happened to have been born. Your my sister, not becuase of physical family, but because of Spiritual. You and I are citizens together, this is what bonds us, and anything that brings disunity is not of God. If America declared war on Scotland tomorrow, for whatever reason, I would not go home and join the Scottish army and turn round and kill Americans, I simply would not. Can you imagine a scenario where Scottish Christians are fighting and killing American Christians?Its preposterous. Let politicians declare war every day if they like, for security, for oil for pride for power for whatever reason, but I , as a Christian, will not be part of it. I know that scares people, angers people, but search the New Testement and see what justification can be found in the words of the Lord. Now, do not waste your time telling us about wars from the Old Testement, it simply does not apply and is mixing apples and oranges. ................Frank

This morning I had an unexpected conversation with a lady whom I have know for a long time. She tends to be viewed as “not too smart”, a bit of a social outcast.

In our conversation, she shared about her past, (something she has kept very secret) I had no idea that she been married to an abuser, a man who told her she was his property and he could do with her whatever he wanted. During those years she didn’t know what to do about it. So in order to escape the pain she became promiscuous, (she couldn’t say it in the exact words.)

She said, “I know it was wrong, but I didn’t know what else to do. It was my way of rebelling, of reacting against my situation I guess.”

Eventually she ran away from the man, and divorced. By and by another man got to know her and felt deep compassion for her. Keep in mind that she would not be considered ideal “wife” material because she seems a bit strange in her social skills. But this man knew that she, as well as her Downs Syndrome daughter needed a roof, some care, and some love. So he married her.

This is a very touching picture of redemptive love. Since then, God has used her to minister to many developmentally people just by helping when she can, and being tender to them. She often calls me up and asks me to pray for so-and-so.. whomever she discovers is in need. She has been accused of being a busy-body.

I remember sometimes seeing her husband come to the church by himself just to pray in the sanctuary. He is a man of few words, and I have not seen the men in the church make much of an effort to befriend him.

I marvel how God provided for these two women through her husband, and how God has been using them in church and community, in spite of their quirks, old fashioned dress, and – oh , yes, she hasn’t yet been able to stop smoking. (for that reason the church won’t allow her to be a member! Those hypocrites!)

With those thoughts on my mind, I have to admit that reading through most of this thread has been rather disturbing to me. As has already been pointed out, it seems that Christians really have a “handle” on all the sins, and are quick to “take a stand” against them. But they lack a heart. They cannot empathize with the sinner. They readily tell the sinner to “repent” but they don’t lead them through to it. They have no clue how. They say, “Don’t eat junk food, but they don’t offer the good food, or enable the sinner to find it.”

I wonder, would any of you men here, if you were free to do so, take a woman like this with her daughter and marry her, knowing that you would at times be embarrassed by her forthright manners, and knowing that doing so might tarnish your reputation?

We ALL know what Jesus told the Woman caught in adultery: Go and stop sinning” But we don’t realize what he offered her. He offered her a REASON to stop sinning. He restored her dignity, he absolved her, and he treated her with respect. Imagine the impact that must have had! For the first time a man was NOT treating her like property. He gave her the inner strength to say, “NO” to those who wanted to use her.”

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Diane

Roadsign writes......We ALL know what Jesus told the Woman caught in adultery: Go and stop sinning” But we don’t realize what he offered her. He offered her a REASON to stop sinning. He restored her dignity, he absolved her, and he treated her with respect. Imagine the impact that must have had! For the first time a man was NOT treating her like property. He gave her the inner strength to say, “NO” to those who wanted to use her.”

I am not sure what roadsign's point is. What she describes in the passage quoted is what Jesus offers today, its the same yesterday, today and forever. And while it was awesome that a man can love and marry a woman who is not readily socialy acceptable, I am not really sure what the point is. When you genuinely meet Jesus, you have a reason to stop sinning, you dont need a man or a woman to complete that, you need a relationship with Jesus. When you have that, He restores, albeit through a process, your dignity, your self-worth, your reason for living. When your self-worth is repaired, or at least increased, then you make better choices.

When adultery is comitted, there is equal sin between the man and the woman, sometimes men use woman, sometimes woman use men, but always there is the concious act of sinning.

Roadisign never tells us when this woman was born again. Why is that important? Because we will know them by their fruit. The fruits of a Christian life is not promiscuity. Is it the unforgivable sin? No, of course not. But the scriptures tell us plainly "Do not be fooled, those who practice these things will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven." This is Scripture speaking, and unless someone knows better than that or someone would claim to have more compassion than God, then that is the Truth. If we do not like that then humanism would be a better philosophy to follow. There is no greater love than Calvary, this is what we are judged on, this is the greatest act of Love, there is no higher love than this for it gives us all the power to overcome sin, everything else is a denial of Calvary ..............Frank

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Diane

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Let’s say that, as of yet, she is not. Does that mean we are not obligated to love her. (After all she is not “one of us’.)

Let’s say that she is born again. You feel that she should then be able to lean on Jesus for everything? Does that permit us to walk past while saying, “God will take care of you. Trust Jesus” ?

Actually Diane it makes all the difference in the world. If she is saved, then Christ will heal her from the inside out. If she is not saved, then she needs Christ to heal her from the inside out. If she is not saved and is being promiscuous, then it is the Holy Spirits business to convict her of her sin, if she claims to be saved and is promiscuous, then let us hope that someone will care about her enough to point out that this is outside of the will of God and Satan will destroy her if she continues to be the straggling sheep.
The problem nowadays is that most people do not care enough in anyone to get that deeply involved in their lives, it is as the Scripture say "Better the smite of a friend than the kiss of an enemy." If we love them right into hell then what kind of love is that? Whitfield, Edwards, The wesley brothers, the Lewis revivals, all were about how men stood before an Almighty God. Their preaching was followed by revivials on a grand scale, which actually changed the paths of countries and communities. What would you consider the state of the world today Diane? Do we have a strong Christian church that is a light unto the gentiles? Or do we have a watered down church that is afraid of its own teaching and refuses to hold anyone to any standard? How is this different from the world? In the beauty of Holiness......Frank

"Love without truth is a denial of Jesus"

Truth without Love is a denial of Jesus.

Frank, are you saying that you 'have' the perfect Love of God operating from you or the whole of His Truth and the complete Beauty of His Holiness ?

Hi Annie
No, I am saying that Love without truth is a denial of Jesus, just as truth without love is a denial of Jesus. If you are all about love and ignore thr truth of God's word and His many warnings, then you deny Jesus, the Word. If you are all about the truth but have no love, then you deny Jesus and are no better than a pharisee. A Christian will strive toward a balance and none of us have arrived....................In the beauty of Holiness........Frank

I have to be honest, Frank, the more I go through life, the less I realize I understand God's ways with mankind. I thought I had it all together, in nice neat packages. But as I talk with people, and watch them live out their lives, I realize I just can't understand all that is going in within them. Sometimes the saint is the real sinner, and vice versa (ex: in marriage relationships)

Of course it makes an eternal difference where one stands with God - but that difference is very hard to determine in far too many cases. The bible says that in the end, only those who endure will be saved. We're not at the end of our journey yet.

Not only that, our standards of outward conformity just doesn't fit in with God's standards of inner holiness. And his way of making us grow in holiness seems messy and unsanctified many times.

I remember a few years ago, when I thought I was finally getting right with God, and was rid of my hypocricy. God convicted me of spiritual adultery - of compromising my love for God, of putting too much trust in man. That was a surprise to me, but as the Spirit shone light on my heart, I had to admit that it was true.

If God had mercy on me, and if he took years to change me, then, how can I say that anyone else should be able to get it right all of a sudden.

Do, you see, why I react to these discussions about adultery, homosexuality, etc etc. It's easy to point to these sins ( we're all so good at that) but it's a lot harder to see that we may have sins that are just as bad.

And as long as we think we're better than someone else, we are not able to love them as we should.
Diane

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Diane

Frank, I forgot to clarify one point - about this lady. I said that she was faithful to her husband. That means that she is not being permiscuous. Besides that, as I pointed out, she knew it was wrong. Those are good indicators, aren't they?

And to answer your question regarding the state of the church. Yes, the church is plagued with antinomianism these days. But it is also quick to judge certain sins (just not their own)
diane

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Diane