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Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 8


we do not have to sin, sin is a willful transgression against the law of God. to him that knows to do good and does not do it. to that persson it is sin.

 2006/2/4 3:53Profile

 Re: Must we sin?

Dying to self has been mentioned - mainly by Rebecca but I am very familiar with this doctrine.

Please could someone give scripture for it?

I mean, scripture which clearly explains what [i]you[/i] mean by [b]'self'[/b], whoever you are who thinks in these terms. Thank you.

 2006/2/4 5:59

 Re: Must we sin?


I noticed you refer to 'levels of maturity'. I know what you mean, but, you have children....... surely you realise this is a gross oversimplification of the truth - which is that we [i][b]grow[/b][/i] into maturity - not in leaps but in tiny little increments which please our Father's heart?

 2006/2/4 6:02

 Re: Must we sin? - to Lazarus


Mike mentioned in his last post the verse you quote 1 John 3:4 (KJV)
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Breaking the law is described as 'lawlessness' in several translations.

John 15
10 If ye keep [u]my commandments[/u], ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
12 [b]This is my commandment, [u]That ye love one another, as I have loved you[/u][/b].

Isn't this the commandment (or law - the Royal Law - the 'new commandment') to which John is referring in his epistle - to love one another as Christ loved us?

This would explain the 'also' in the KJV. Because as you rightly pointed out, the old law is for the lawless. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But, once Christ's, are we not now obliged to keep Christ's law - the law of love, one for another.......? I put it to you that you can read the New Testament with this thought in mind, and it will still make sense. The verses which refer to the Old Covenant, or the Mosaic Law, are very clearly defined, and thereby, limited.

 2006/2/4 6:03


In Matthew 16:24 Jesus said If any man come after me he must deny himself and pick up his cross and follow me.

The first step is denying yourself.

Many christians will selectively deny themselves when it suits them but they end up going in circles in the wilderness only to come back to the same area in their life the Lord has been trying to get them to give up.

The second step is picking up your cross.

This is the promised land.When you pick up your cross their is no temptation because dead people can't sin.This is the life the Apostles had.This is the easy way for a christian because instead of working at trying to stop sinning you just die.Sure the storms in your life will get stronger but what cannot kill you will only make you stronger.

You were asking about how with our children that they learn little by little.God will NEVER give you more than you are able to bear.That is a promise in His word.If it is presented to us than we can bear it or it never would have been presented.We only think we cannot bear it because we our reasoning with our human minds instead of declaring greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world.

 2006/2/4 8:53

 Re: Must we sin?

Rebecca - good answer.... but I'm concerned about the truth which Jesus also said, 'love your neighbour as yourself'.

Young's translation of Matthew 24:16 says
Then said Jesus to his disciples, `If any one doth will to come after me, [u]let him [b]disown[/b] himself[/u], and take up his cross, and follow me,

I find that alteration in emphasis [i]very[/i] helpful. It ties in with the idea of us being bought with a price, and what could we ever do to repay Him, except obey His commands willingly?

You see, I think one of the reasons Christians go round in circles on this one, is the very idea of [i]denying[/i] one[u]self[/u], leans towards penance (as opposed to penitence), and could be taken as far as self-phlagellation, at least in the way the person thinks... whereas, it is more an attitude, or a decision, to not [i][b]please[/b][/i] one's 'self'.

While Christians are busy trying to please God by a rarified variety of self-destruction, they are not only [u]not[/u] coming to Him for the healing of their hurts which they [i]need[/i] but they are actively working against a normal aspect of human nature - the having of self. (Jesus had a self.)

I was looking, this morning, at Heb 12;2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down; (Young)

Before He endured the cross, according to Young, He [u]had already[/u] despised the shame.

This speaks to me of a Man who had thought through the implications of obedience..... This was a Man who was completely whole, and in the prime of His human strength (including his soul), Who [u]chose[/u] to lay aside all other legitimate interests, in order to do what His Father had asked of Him.

He Himself had had to enquire of His Father how this death would work (John 10:18), and He uses the word 'I' all the time. When Paul says 'not I, but Christ lives in me', it is not that he has no 'I' and has stopped being 'me'.... it is more that he is allowing the 'I' of Christ to be [u]in control[/u]. It is the [i]flesh[/i], with the affections and lusts which is crucified, not the whole 'being'..... One still has a mind, a soul, strength and a new heart, which, with the body, are expected to come under the influence of the Holy Spirit, now that the previously controlling 'life of the flesh', has been baptised into His death.

I don't think that a consciousness of baptism into the death of Christ, is the same as 'picking up your cross' I don't think anyone can pick up their cross, until they have been baptised into His death. This may be what Watchman Nee is getting at, which you quote (dead men cannot sin) but the fact is, while we have a body, we have to translate that spiritual truth into real daily life.

When I asked the question, I had no idea I would write this in reply. I'm not trying to upset your theology too much.... only to question whether we - any of us - are communicating with [i]realism[/i], about how to 'think' about sin and how to experience the overcoming of it.

 2006/2/4 13:06


That's wonderful Linn ... you brought up the 1st & 2nd Commandment.

THAT'S IT !!!! Yaaaaaay for you.

That's what was missing for me in Nee's books, although I love the man and we still read and keep his books ... it was another man, who's still alive ... an older man, who showed us that without AGAPE, the whole ball of wax is a wasted mess.

Anyhow, I won't go into all'a that, because I don't think anyone here needs me to ... I think we're all very aware of Agape and how if we 'truly' Agape we 1- won't desire 'sin' and 2 - it's the fastest way to die to 'self' and 3 - brings us into the very Image of Christ.

Thanks Dorcas, all this mucking around in circles comes to an end with your bringing up the 2 Commandments ... that fulfill all the law and the prophets.

Not a "self" centered teaching neither, like all the rest that I've heard.

Bless yer heart sis.
Thank you.

Oops. Edit to add #3.

 2006/2/4 13:19


Im going to try to answer to what you said Im just having a hard time trying to understand what you are saying,which may be my fault.

There are MANY areas in the bible that you could look at as literal.Jesus and His disciples all had one thing in common; they were always being accused as being WAY OVER THE TOP.What does he mean by drink His blood and eat His flesh? The disciples themselves even questioned in their minds "What is He saying?"

No we don't kill ourselves or stop being an individual.We took on a new nature when we became saved.This is a reality not an idea.When you were water baptized this symbolized being buried with Him in baptism.Why were we baptized this way? Was it just another creative and interesting idea or a reality?

You don't stop ever being you but you have a new nature now.Old things have passed away and all things have become new.The problem is that even though the dog has become a cat he is still trying to dig holes and bury his bones.

Christians are still trying to sew fig leaves together to hide thier nakedness.You don't have to sew fig leaves anymore.Christians don't have to spend all of their time trying to cover up their old man when they realize that they no longer live.

You don't have to worry about upsetting my theology.You can't upset me.It's not about me it's about Him.I don't have to prove anything to anyone and thats not meant to offend anyone thats a truth.If God gives me the opportunity to share with someone than praise the Lord if noone cares that doesn't bother me.Im just here to occupy till He comes.My life is in His hands.Every thing that happens in my life throughout the day is no mistake.The Lord giveth and sometimes the Lord taketh away.

I just know what I believe and if noone else on the face of the earth believes as I do that's fine with me.That's just part of being a christian.The last thing that the apostle Paul said was that "ALL men forsook me..." Jesus died alone and all of the disciples I believe died alone.Spiritually speaking a christian is alone when they live a crucified life because the Lord sets you apart.Im used to people not agreeing with me and have no problem with it.It doesn't hurt my feelings!I enjoy the journey!

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

 2006/2/4 14:48



I don't understand what you meant when you said, "without AGAPE the whole ball of wax is a wasted mess?" Then you said that was what was missing in Nee's books...???

Watchman Nee always preached love.He was one of the greatest preachers of love!!!Certainly there must be love!!!God is love!!!

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, mind and strength.That's alot of love and to alot of people they would say we don't really need to love the Lord that much it's too extreme.Get the light out!Too much light!It doesn't matter what area a person preaches on the truth is most people just want to stay in their comfort zone and ANYTHING you do is ALWAYS going to be too extreme.

 2006/2/4 16:24

 Re: Must we sin?

Please listen to this.

A Simple Gospel (compilation) with Ernest O'Neill

 2006/2/4 17:10

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