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Here is an exerpt from Watchman Nee:


God's normal for a christian can be summerized as follows:I no longer live! Now it is Christ who lives His life in me (Gal. 2:20).

There are two aspects of salvation that should be manifest in a Christian's life: the first is the forgiveness of sin; the second is his deliverance from sinning.Anyone who is not experiencing both of these aspects in his life is living beneath the privilages that God has accomplished for us in Christ.

Because of our limited comprehension of the state of our fallen nature,we do not have a true appreciation of how helpless the natural man really is. Thus,we still have some expectations in ourselves.And as a result of this faulty line of thought,we think that we can please God.

The blood can wash away my sins but it cannot wash away my "old man" (Rom 6:6).For this we are in need of the cross,that the old man may be crucified.Though the blood deals with sins, it is the cross that deals with the sinner.

At the beginning of the Christian life,we are concerned with our doing and not with our being; we are distressed more by what we have done than by what we are.We think that if only we could rectify certain things we could be good christians; therefore,we set out to change our actions.We try to please the Lord,but we find that something within us does not want to please Him.And the more we try to rectify matters externally, the more we realize how deep seated the problem really is.

Since we came into the world by birth, we must go out by death.To do away with our sinfulness, we must do away with our life.But how do we die? It is not by trying to kill ourselves.Rather,we die by recognizing that God has already dealt with us in Christ.This is summed up in the apostles statement, "As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death" (Rom.6:3)

 2006/2/1 19:56

 Re: Let's not tire then ...

No space suit needed .... ;-)

Again, the definition of sin is ...
MISSING THE MARK and the "Mark" is ... The actual [u]Image of Christ[/u].

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Not just the cessation of outward things or whatever people narrow "sins" down to, in their own puny thinking, [u]but sin is anything that is not in or of The Image of Christ Himself.[/u]

That is "the goal or mark" of the Holy Spirit inside of us ... that by our Cooperative fellowship with Him, [u]that we would come into His very Image.[/u]

Anything done in our own strength is sin also ... Romans 8 again and Galatians.

If anyone's preaching the Sinless Perfection Teaching on here ... I advise they take heed, lest they fall.

The Word is speaking of us being transformed into the very image of Christ, not Just stopping this or that.

To say that "the mark" is anything less than the "Image of Christ", is narrow-mindedness regarding the Scriptures and Not knowing the definition of "sin".


IF in every second of every day, you were "dead" and "walking in the Spirit" alone ... you would be doing 'exactly' what He would be doing, every second of every day nonstop.

That's the "mark" and what we're to aim for as Paul has written and as we see him talk about in Phil 3.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Etc from James.

A "dead" person is identical to Christ and walking in the Spirit 24/7.
Is there anyone here who claims that this is where they are ?

It's our puny definition of "sin" that has made Christianity as ineffective in this world as it has become in the last 50 years or so.

I don't tire of saying that last sentence neither.

 2006/2/1 20:19

Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio


Not just the cessation of outward things or whatever people narrow "sins" down to, in their own puny thinking, but sin is anything that is not in or of The Image of Christ Himself.

You can keep raising the mark (to its proper place, I might add), and I can keep showing you that the scriptures promise us the tools and ability (through Christ alone) to reach that, and then command us to do it (gal 5, 1 corinth 10:13, Rom 6-8, 1 thessalonians 5:23 etc etc). Indeed, you are only insisting upon the far distance of the moon, must I continue to insist upon the entire-sufficiency and ability of the teleporter? Christ is entirely sufficient and powerful enough. Let us walk in His image, without excuses, for He has promised us the ability.

Joe E

 2006/2/1 21:06Profile


MeAgain said:
The word is speaking of us being transformed into the image of Christ,not Just stopping this or that.

That is exactly what I have been saying.

MeAgain said:

The bible tells us not to judge ourselves.The life that Jesus lives through you may not be by having you walk on water.Look at the Christians in China.I just read where the Chinese christians are not only being killed and persecuted but sent to mental hospitals.There may come a time where 15 minutes of preaching will cost you a 15 year prison sentence.Does that sound like the ministry you've always dreamed of? There is no telling what kind of life we will have in the future or what another day holds.You just have to live out each day of your life crucified with Him.This is the only life that is pleasing to the Lord.

MeAgain said: If in every second of the day,you were "dead" and "walking in the spirit" would be doing 'exactly', what He would be doing,every second of the day nonstop.

The ministry that God has for one is not always the ministry He has for another.There is one thing we all have in common in our walk with the Lord and that is less of us and more of Him.You might spend your entire life just being spoken against.Jesus said GREAT is your reward when men speak against you.Have you ever heard of anyone wanting a ministry of "Being Spoken Against???"

Its not WHAT we do it's who we are!

 2006/2/1 21:23

 Re: Must we sin?

Rebecca said

The bible tells us not to judge ourselves.

What do you make of this verse, then?

(NKJV) 1 Corinthians 11
30 For this reason many [are] weak and sick among you, and many sleep.
31 For [u]if we would judge ourselves[/u], we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

 2006/2/1 21:39


1 Cor.11:30-32 is referring to judging our actions,not ourselves.
1 Cor. chapter 4 talks about how we are not to judge ourselves; v.3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement, I judge not mine own self.

2Cor 10:12,18 For we dare not make ourselves of the number,or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves are not wise. v.18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

"Dead men cannot sin!"-Rebecca

 2006/2/1 21:58

 Re: Must we sin - re Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,

I think the verses you quote [u]prove[/u] my point not yours, because in them Paul is talking about man's judgement, whereas the only judgement that matters, is God's, and if we can concur with [i]His[/i] judgement of our sin, then, we will not be condemned later.

By the way, I agree that dead mean cannot sin. That's why, if we agree with God that we are worthy of death, (that is, judge ourselves according to I Cor 11:31), then, as we partake of the bread and wine, we are acknowledging our need for the Saviour - which is how we can live free from sin as you say.

 2006/2/1 22:29

Joined: 2003/4/17
Posts: 124

 Re: Sin

A Pastor friend of mine said that years ago in the community he lived in people were taking their televisions to their back yards and shooting them. A Pastor friend of his asked him, "Are you going to shoot your television?", to which he replied, "No, I don't believe in violence".

Someone mentioned hymns. I heard someone say awhile back that Christians don't say lies, they just sing them. When we sing, "I surrender all", do we really mean it?

Yes, I have read The Normal Christian Life. Watchman Nee in his great wisdom has helped me understand many things through his books.


 2006/2/1 22:39Profile


JFEdgar, I have no differences with your post.

You explained your teleporter well enough and I agree, because you were wise enough to add, that we've been "commanded" to get on ... Indeed.

I only used the "space suit" as a fun opener.
But I haven't "raised" the mark to the moon.
The 'mark' is in the Word and I didn't set it or raise it or changed it in any way.

We are told to walk in the Spirit. Romans 8 that I keep refering to.

My only disagreement with others, is when "the mark" is lowered, by making "sin" just these outward or whatever "things", rather than what it truly is.

It puts an even greater demand on us to "walk in the Spirit" and puts more import on the work of the Holy Spirit in us.

Romans 8:28 should ALWAYS be quoted with verse 29.

As I said in my first post, it is a Cooperative Fellowship we have with the Holy Spirit.

So, I don't see where we disagree, nor have disagreed at all, that was why I added without "space suits" to my post. I felt you were seeing it.

Thanks for your reply.

 2006/2/1 23:22


This is how the bible defines sin:

"sin is trangession of the Law" 1John 3:4

That is the biblical deffinition of sin, violating God's Law - the Ten Commandments.

Let's be careful not to make new commandments, and thereby say "see, nobody can be perfect". The road is already narrow, let's not make it narrower. There is no need to higher the bar any higher then it already is.

Someone could say, "well, I can't be perfect because I don't read my bible 24 hours a day, and if I was perfect, then I would be reading my bible 24 hours a day." And thereby make a new commandments to justify the lack of keeping the commands that we already do have!

The truth of the matter is, [b]YOU DON'T HAVE TO SIN![/b] And repenting means you stop it.

It it is loud and clear in the bible, you don't have to sin:

1 Corinthians 10:13 - "There hath NO temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will NOT suffer you to be tempted ABOVE THAT YE ARE ABLE; but will with the temptation also make A WAY TO ESCAPE, that ye may be ABLE to BEAR IT."

So there it is. When you are tempted, it is never more then you are able to bear, and you always have a way of escape, so that you don't have to sin, meaing, you don't have to violate the Law.

This is not being legalistic. There is nothing legalistic about keeping God's Law. Legalism is turning the commands of men into the commands of God - Matt 15:9. But Jesus taught keeping the commands of God, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."Joh 14:15

Those who do not break the Law are not under the law, only those who violate the Law are under the Law as it clearly says in Ga 5:23 and also 1Ti 1:9

 2006/2/1 23:23

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